Judeo-Arabic?

Would like to know if it would be possible for Judeo-Arabic to be the national language(?) as opposed to only being used by scholars like Maimonides?

Also if Leo is reading this, could you please maybe explain about this topic? It was brought up in my Midieval European class briefly but I would like to know more.
 
Judeo-Arabic as a national language? I am aware that prior to the Zionist movement, the various Jewish "ethnic" groups had their own language, using some dialect of Hebrew, biblical or rabbinic, as a scriptural and liturgical language. The Ashkenazim spoke Yiddish, a Teutonic (West Germanic) language with Slavic and Turkic loanwords and features (and often written right-to-left in the Hebrew abjad); the Sephardim spoke Ladino, a descendent of Latin related to Spanish and Portuguese; the Mizrahim spoke Judeo-Arabic; Ethiopic Jews spoke some dialect related to Ethiopian.

I can not imagine how Judeo-Arabic would become a national language. There are several problems. First, the Zionist project was almost entirely an Ashkenazic endeavor, the Ashkenazim spoke Yiddish, not Judeo-Arabic. (For any Jewish dialect or idiom to become a national language would require the establishment of a Jewish nation-state, i.e. Zionism. Given that many, if not most, Judeo-Arabic speakers lived in or around the Holy Land, there would be no need for them to start a Zionist program as most would already live there, and attempting to found a "Jewish state" would only provoke problems.) Furthermore, as many Ashkenazi Jews abandoned Yiddish for proper German or Hungarian, or Russian, Czech, Lithuanian, w/e Balto-Slavic language, Mizrahi Jews and those Sephardi Jews living in North Africa or the Levant to abandon Judeo-Arabic for "proper" Arabic with assimilation.

Second, given the Zionist movement's concern with establishing a "Jewish race" or "Jewish ethnicity" for the purpose of establishing a nationality, and a continuity with the biblical Hebrews, Hebrew would have to be the national language. Zionists would select a language common to all peoples of Jewish faith (even if only for religious purposes), and which would have been spoken by the original Jews.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
When we talk about "Judeo-Arabic", we're actually discussing a bunch of different things. For starters, there's a literary form which belongs to the whole phenomenon of "Middle Arabic" - which is to say, the spoken dialects of Arabic written down in the Middle Ages, usually by religious minorities like Christians and Jews. It's not as simple as that, though, since there is only one standard for written Arabic and it affects how the dialects are written. Think about the efforts of American authors to represent the various dialects of the people in their novels (particularly rural dialects of English) -- they don't represent the way that people actually speak, but a kind of "colloquialized" standard English. That's more or less like the Judeo-Arabic Maimonides used.

Today, there is no one standard form of Judeo-Arabic - there are different dialects, like Algerian Judeo-Arabic, Egyptian Judeo-Arabic, Baghdadi Judeo-Arabic, and so forth. They're all very different from one another and from the dialects of their Muslim and Christian neighbors. Without Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel, and the flight of Jews from the Arab world to Israel, then they might still be thriving, but the sum of these things has endangered the survival of Arabic.
 
Off the top of my head, there're two distinct possibilities for JA to become "national language" (remember that famous quip "language is a dialect with an army and navy" was originally spoken in Yiddish :) ):
  1. Judaistic kingdoms of Yemen somehow survived. I'm not a pro in history of early Islam, so I can't suggest PODs, but survival of Ethyopia hints that "infidel" country isn't automatically doomed by Islamic surge (Ethyopia had been left alone at some point).
  2. Some colonial power (France in Algeria most likely) attempting colonial project similar to OTL Jewish Autonomous Oblast of USSR or giving separate legal status of Jewish community in Algeria/Morocco/Tunisia (similar to millet system), while making Judeo-Arabic an official language of this "project".
 
Judaistic kingdoms of Yemen somehow survived. I'm not a pro in history of early Islam, so I can't suggest PODs, but survival of Ethyopia hints that "infidel" country isn't automatically doomed by Islamic surge (Ethyopia had been left alone at some point).

Wasn't Ethiopian case actually more about terrain-things ?

Besides, we didn't need to prevent Islamification of the country just to make Yemenite Jews remain there. But how many Jews were there in Yemen before most of them moved to Israel ?
 
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Wasn't Ethiopian case actually more about terrain-things ?
Partly that but I remember reading that some kind of special relationships existed between Ethiopia and Islam.
we didn't need to prevent Islamification of the country just to make Yemenite Jews remain there.
We didn't need it to keep some Yemeni Jews around, we do need it to give Judeo-Arabic the status of official language of the country.
 
We didn't need it to keep some Yemeni Jews around, we do need it to give Judeo-Arabic the status of official language of the country.

Okay, I didn't see the OP thouroughly....:eek:

But I think once Islam has already taken over the country, it'll be most likely impossible for Yemen to resist Islamification. Besides, wasn't it christian instead, prior to Islam ?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
In OTL, the majority of Jews that settled in Israel were from the Middle East and most of them spoke some form of Arabic in the home (although large numbers would also have spoken Ladino, Turkish, and Persian). Arabic remains one of the official languages of the State of Israel.

In fact, the drive to revive Hebrew as a spoken language was largely pioneered by Ashkenazim. If Jews quit other Arab countries for Palestine in the same numbers as OTL but are not joined there by Ashkenazim, then "Judeo-Arabic" will be the working language of the Palestinian Jews. The specific type of Judeo-Arabic will probably be a koineized form of the Cairene dialect.

I see this as a possible, though by no means likely, outcome of the Ottoman Empire sitting out the Great War. I do think that the Great Powers will eventually carve it up, taking or retaining A) the "Christian" portions, B) the oil-rich portions, and C) all of North Africa including Egypt, but they might leave behind a rump empire with the Levant (Syria-Palestine) intact, with semi-autonomous regimes for the Maronites in the Lebanon and Jews in Palestine. If the Ottomans retain Palestine but not other Arab lands, they might even encourage the immigration of a historically loyal group in order to fortify their southern border.
 
Arabic remains one of the official languages of the State of Israel.
To accomodate Arab population. Mizrahim were subjected to a rigid "hebraization" policy upon arrival and majority of them switched to Hebrew within one generation

In fact, the drive to revive Hebrew as a spoken language was largely pioneered by Ashkenazim. If Jews quit other Arab countries for Palestine in the same numbers as OTL but are not joined there by Ashkenazim, then "Judeo-Arabic" will be the working language of the Palestinian Jews.
"Joined" is not correct word here. "Welcomed" would be the word, as Zionism was born among Ashkenazim and pioneered by them for decades. Zionist movements among Mizrahim were sparked by "Western" education, which exposed young Oriental Jews to "European" ideas, Zionism being one. BTW, Mizrahim migration to Israel is largely post-1948 phenomena.
 
I see this as a possible, though by no means likely, outcome of the Ottoman Empire sitting out the Great War. I do think that the Great Powers will eventually carve it up, taking or retaining A) the "Christian" portions, B) the oil-rich portions, and C) all of North Africa including Egypt, but they might leave behind a rump empire with the Levant (Syria-Palestine) intact, with semi-autonomous regimes for the Maronites in the Lebanon and Jews in Palestine. If the Ottomans retain Palestine but not other Arab lands, they might even encourage the immigration of a historically loyal group in order to fortify their southern border.

There is virtually no chance that the Powers would carve up the Ottoman Empire if it had sat out the war. They DID attempt to carve up what was left and failed; their chances against the full Ottoman Empire untouched by war with its military fully intact is nil.

In that case, the Jews had already made the decision to drop Yiddish and Ladino in favor of Turkish. What impact that would have had in the Arabophone portions of the empire is hard to say - but if the great Jewish centers of Izmir, Salonika, and Istanbul are all using Turkish, that's bound to have an effect on the provincial Jews as well.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
To accomodate Arab population. Mizrahim were subjected to a rigid "hebraization" policy upon arrival and majority of them switched to Hebrew within one generation
I am aware of this. Arabic as an official language of the state is largely a relic of the British administration and there have already been some noises towards ditching it just to spite the Arabs.

"Joined" is not correct word here. "Welcomed" would be the word, as Zionism was born among Ashkenazim and pioneered by them for decades.
I am also aware of that, although technically speaking you are not entirely correct. There were, in fact, Sephardic proto-Zionists, such as Judah Alkalai, who was a friend of Theodor Herzl's grandfather. I also suspect Hayyim Lorje of being Sfaradi, even though he operated out of Frankfurt before coming to Palestine, because his surname is a common Ladino surname.

Zionist movements among Mizrahim were sparked by "Western" education, which exposed young Oriental Jews to "European" ideas, Zionism being one.
I presume you're talking about the Alliance Israélite Universelle? It was founded in the same year as Lorje's Kolonisations-Verein für Palästina, and for many of the same reasons (in this case, the Damascus Affair).

BTW, Mizrahim migration to Israel is largely post-1948 phenomena.
I'm well aware of that as well, although there were Sfaradim in Palestine long before any Ashkenazim thought to settle there.

All in all, you seem to be suggesting that the Oriental Jews, who form the bulk of the Israeli population today, would never have migrated to Palestine if it were not for the Ashkenazim, and that the idea would never have occurred to them originally but rather they needed to be "sparked" by Jews from Europe. While the bulk of Jews from Arab lands did indeed migrate after 1948, they started leaving long before the foundation of the State of Israel. Your idea is frankly untenable, and while I'm not surprised that you would attempt to push such a line on us, I hope that others will see through it.
 
I also suspect Hayyim Lorje of being Sfaradi, even though he operated out of Frankfurt before coming to Palestine, because his surname is a common Ladino surname.
Sfaradi does not equal "Arabic speaker". An awful lot of them spoke Ladino for "Jewish vernacular" and never knew a word of Arabic. And I have to tell you that Lorie (Lurie) is pretty popular Jewish surname in Russia (it is known that they're from Balkans, but they were pretty well integrated into general Ashkenazi community long before 1900).

All in all, you seem to be suggesting that the Oriental Jews, who form the bulk of the Israeli population today, would never have migrated to Palestine if it were not for the Ashkenazim, and that the idea would never have occurred to them originally but rather they needed to be "sparked" by Jews from Europe.
I did not suggest that Mizrahim would never migrate if it is not for Ashkenazim and that idea would never occur to them naturally. I was just reminding that Zionism is a fruit of distinctively Western "ethnic nationalism" tradition, adopted by Jews (you seem to know a lot about early history of Zionism; you should be familiar with "land without people to people without land" motto and isn't it just reeks of "National Awakening" of 1800-1850). If you want Mizrahi to become early converts to Zionism and to spearhead it the way Polish and Romanian Jews did IOTL, you should expose them to "Awakening" ideas earlier and stronger. There's nothing of community rivalry in my statement, I was just stating the fact.

P.S. If you want to bring AIU into discussion, it should not be compared to early Zionist movements like BILU similar groups. You should look at Haskalah for appropriate comparison, and didn't it start at least 1/2 century earlier? This half-century gave Ashkenazim an edge in developing "Jewish" ideology, so to speak.

Edit: It would actually be an exciting TL with *Zionism being born among Mizrahi. Off the top of my head, any attempt to delay it's adoption by EE Jewry past 1917 is ASB, but if Mizrahi Zionism is born around 1850-1870 it gives them an advantage of half century, so Ashkenazim would be latecomers in this TL.
 
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Leo Caesius

Banned
Sfaradi does not equal "Arabic speaker".
:confused: Where did I ever say that it did?

I was merely responding to your puzzling claim that "Zionism was born among Ashkenazim and pioneered by them for decades" and the implication that similar movements would never arise among non-European Jews without the "spark" given to them by Europeans. I suppose this is true for the modern movement inaugurated by Herzl and his contemporaries but similar ideas were being discussed in the Balkan territories of the Ottoman empire long before Herzl.

An awful lot of them spoke Ladino for "Jewish vernacular" and never knew a word of Arabic.
I'm well aware of that. Nowhere have I suggested that they were Arabic speaking. In fact, I mentioned Ladino several times in my post above.

And I have to tell you that Lorie (Lurie) is pretty popular Jewish surname in Russia (it is known that they're from Balkans, but they were pretty well integrated into general Ashkenazi community long before 1900).
I'm sure they're well-integrated now, but I'm less convinced that they would have viewed themselves as Ashkenazim "long before 1900" as you put it. In any case, Hayyim Lorje wasn't in Russia, he was in Frankfurt. There were plenty of Sfaradim in the Western Europe (particularly in France, the Netherlands, and northern Italy) who maintained their identity as well.

If you want Mizrahi to become early converts to Zionism and to spearhead it the way Polish and Romanian Jews did IOTL, you should expose them to "Awakening" ideas earlier and stronger. There's nothing of community rivalry in my statement, I was just stating the fact.
The Haskalah is often portrayed as an exclusively Ashkenazic movement, but the Sephardic Jews of the Balkan territories of the Ottoman empire were definitely experiencing a similar "Enlightenment" at the same time. I honestly feel that the potential for a non-Ashkenazic *Zionism exists in Sarajevo, Istanbul, Salonica, Smyrna, and the other major cities of the Sephardic diaspora. I'm not so sure about the Jews in the Arab world or Iran. In any case, if the idea had developed there independently of the intellectual currents in Europe, it might influence the more cosmopolitan Jews in other parts of the empire, such as the communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, and Baghdad where Judeo-Arabic was the vernacular.

Yemen, on the other hand...
 
I'm well aware of that. Nowhere have I suggested that they were Arabic speaking. In fact, I mentioned Ladino several times in my post above.

Speaking of djudeo-espanyol - I'm going to need your help on something related to that. To the PM box!
 
I was merely responding to your puzzling claim that "Zionism was born among Ashkenazim and pioneered by them for decades"
This isn't "puzzling claim". This is truth. Although there's a handful of non-Ashkenaz figures among early Zionists, the movement was more very Ashkenazic. Check where first waves of Aliyah came from.
and the implication that similar movements would never arise among non-European Jews without the "spark" given to them by Europeans.
"Never" is very loaded word, but you seem keen to replace discussion of links between Zionism and "national Awakening" of 19 century Europe with politically charged accusations.
I suppose this is true for the modern movement inaugurated by Herzl and his contemporaries
Herzl wasn't the towering pillar of thought in the middle of barren landscape of mindlessness. He was a product of bubbling and boiling sea of ideas about Jews' fate in an age of Nation States. So, wouldn't it be for him, somebody else would raise the banner pretty soon.
similar ideas were being discussed in the Balkan territories of the Ottoman empire long before Herzl.
Hmmm, how much were those communities affected by European thoughts too? BTW, I would not deny a possibility that *Zionism (even it's Herzlian form) could be pioneered by Balkan Jews. Butterfly Alex II's assasination away, and Jewry of Russian Empire, not subjected to 1882 pogroms and May Laws, would be more concerned with search for it's place within multi-ethnic Empire than with search of ways out. Throw couple of stupid anti-semitic acts of Osmans in, ansd Sefardim of Ottoman Empire could become the natural breeding ground for Herzl's ideas.
I'm sure they're well-integrated now, but I'm less convinced that they would have viewed themselves as Ashkenazim "long before 1900" as you put it.
I did a brief check of "Лурье" (Lourie) page on Russian wikipedia. Most of Louries mentioned there and born between 1890 and 1917 either bear Ashkenazic middle name (middle name is father's name in Russian) or their mothers have Ashkenazic last names. Remaining Louries are bearing very "Russian Slavic" names, indicating early and deep integration into mainstream society (those might be of "Sefard Luries" stock, descendants of those who came to Russia as educated doctors and engineers and integrated into Russian society for generations).

The Haskalah is often portrayed as an exclusively Ashkenazic movement, but the Sephardic Jews of the Balkan territories of the Ottoman empire were definitely experiencing a similar "Enlightenment" at the same time. I honestly feel that the potential for a non-Ashkenazic *Zionism exists in Sarajevo, Istanbul, Salonica, Smyrna, and the other major cities of the Sephardic diaspora.
Agree. See above.

if the idea had developed there independently of the intellectual currents in Europe...
Could it?
 
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