Juana the Not-So-Mad?

Juana, Queen of Castile is widely remembered by her unfortunate nickname of 'the Mad/la Loca'. However, I can't seem to find an unbiased source confirming that she was ACTUALLY crazy for cocopuffs - since her father, husband and son all had a vested interest in her "madness" being a reality.

However, these days, the usual reading of her symptoms is that of manic depression at best and schizophrenia at worst. Now my actual POD is that her father/husband doesn't succeed in having her declared unfit to rule. Is this at all possible? Or is the 16th century Spanish version of a padded cell the best she can hope for?
 
Juana, Queen of Castile is widely remembered by her unfortunate nickname of 'the Mad/la Loca'. However, I can't seem to find an unbiased source confirming that she was ACTUALLY crazy for cocopuffs - since her father, husband and son all had a vested interest in her "madness" being a reality.

However, these days, the usual reading of her symptoms is that of manic depression at best and schizophrenia at worst. Now my actual POD is that her father/husband doesn't succeed in having her declared unfit to rule. Is this at all possible? Or is the 16th century Spanish version of a padded cell the best she can hope for?

1520. The Comuneros' Revolt has took root all around the main castilian cities and it"s spreading beyond. So, the Comuneros governing body, the Santa Junta, goes to Tordesillas, where Juana was imprisoned, to declare their loyalty to the leigtimate queen and gather her support against the "imperials" supporting his son Charles. In OTL she gave her best wishes to the Comuneros and made clear her sympathy for their cause (in the lines of "you are my vassals and I'm your queen. Go and beat back the usurpers) However she refused to sign a decree procaliming the Santa Junta the legitimate government of Castile, probably fearing the political risks (and physical ones) of that act. But if Juana had signed a document of support to the Comuneros, the boost for their legitimacy and morale would have been an actual challenge fir Charles, probably making certain members of the nobility to reconsider their support to the imperial side...and then, the battlefield decides...
 
Is there anyway for her to never end up being sidelined after her mom's death to start with?

More support from the nobles, and getting herself crowned immediately after Isabella's death? Ferdinand following his wife to the grave in quick succession also helps. The only problem she'll have then is her Habsburg family.
 
More support from the nobles, and getting herself crowned immediately after Isabella's death? Ferdinand following his wife to the grave in quick succession also helps. The only problem she'll have then is her Habsburg family.

Well, if Philipp still dies on schedule in said scenario, it might work itself out, provided she can prove herself competent early enough. What differences might we see in Spain for the next 50 years without it having to necessarily support imperial splendor? (sure she's Karl's mom, but that doesn't exactly mean she's necessarily going to bankroll his wars (though she'll probably pay/loan the money for him to win the election)).
 
More support from the nobles, and getting herself crowned immediately after Isabella's death? Ferdinand following his wife to the grave in quick succession also helps. The only problem she'll have then is her Habsburg family.

To be fair neither her father (Trastamara), her husband (Habsburg) nor her son (Habsburg) always treated her well. It was Ferdinand, who basically put her under house arrest, and Charles, who decided to keep her there.

Well, if Philipp still dies on schedule in said scenario, it might work itself out, provided she can prove herself competent early enough. What differences might we see in Spain for the next 50 years without it having to necessarily support imperial splendor? (sure she's Karl's mom, but that doesn't exactly mean she's necessarily going to bankroll his wars (though she'll probably pay/loan the money for him to win the election)).

The resources of the Spanish kingdoms helped the Habsburgs during that election, but so did the Burgundian Inheritance and excellent ties with bankers such as the Fugger family. Also don't forget, Charles as a Habsburg was a native candidate.
As far as wars go, I don't think much would change. Castille-Aragon and Austria-Burgundy will still be in an alliance; and especially in the Italian peninsula the would even be natural allies without the familiar ties.
OTOH Charles with a smaller personal powerbase might be slightly more cautious ITTL.
Furthermore with Charles being able to focus on the Empire, he's probably able to ensure, that troubles get less out of hand than IOTL too.

Another IMHO interesting option would be the survival of Philip the Handsome. Then both archduke-infante Charles and archduke-infante Ferdinand are likely to be made a Governor of a part the inheritance. It could even result in a slightly different division of the inheritance, basically keeping Castille-Aragon and Austria-Burgundy intact.
 
I've been reading a rather dated biography of Queen Isabel, but something in it surprised me. I knew of the conflict between Isabel and Juana over her religion ("the freedom of thought and speech common in Flanders was more to the taste of Joan than the terror-stricken devotion of her Inquisition-ridden native land") but came across this passage:

to the Cortes of Toledo, which took the oath of allegiance to Philip and his wife, it was secretly intimated that the Queen wished that, 'if, when the Queen died, Juana was absent from the realms, or, after having come to them again, or that present, she might not choose, or might not be able to reign and govern ' Ferdinand should rule Castile in her name. This was a serious departure both from strict legality and from usage and has been considered by recent commentators to indicate that, even this early [1502], Isabel wished to exclude her daughter from the throne, either for heresy or madness, or with that pretext."

The source given is the Calendar of Spanish State Papers, Supplement to vols. i and ii.
Why does this nugget never get mentioned? It's always blamed on Fernando and Philippe, not Isabel. And what were Isabel's plans if she blocked Juana (inviting a repeat of the civil war that had accompanied her own accession)? Or was this merely the ramblings of an old, disillusioned woman, not to be taken seriously?
 
More support from the nobles, and getting herself crowned immediately after Isabella's death? Ferdinand following his wife to the grave in quick succession also helps. The only problem she'll have then is her Habsburg family.

According to the bio, Fernando WAS likewise ill when Queen Isabel lay dying. He recovered enough that she begged him to ensure that Juana succeeded. As to her Habsburg husband, might he not have enough on his plate that he leaves Spain's governance to her? The bio also says that Fernando was aware of his unpopularity in Castile, and how Europe would react if he seized the Castilian crown, which is why he allowed Juana and Philippe to succeed instead of, as some of his Aragonese ministers suggested, claiming the Castilian crown through his descent from Juan I of Castile.
 
What biography are you reading? Isabella would do nothing to damage her daughter's right to rule after her because she knows what a snake her husband is (much as she loved Ferdinand, she wasn't stupid). And she would know that anything derogatory could be used by Ferdinand (or an ambitious husband) against Juana.

Juana's problems were: her father and her husband, both of whom issued coins with XX & Juana (insert names for XX), each declaring himself the legitimate king of Castile (the bigger and best of the two kingdoms). When her husband died, her father took over as the regent for her son, even though she should have been the sole monarch by Isabella's will.

How to solve: give Ferdinand something else to do about the time Philip dies, a massive invasion somewhere, a long-term illness of his own, something. This will give Juana time enough to reach Castile and establish herself as the Queen. Once she's crowned and running things, Ferdinand can come and try to impose anything he likes (himself as regent for Carlos), but the Castilians aren't buying what he's selling. Do not find Juana another husband to fall in love with (part of her problem).
 
What biography are you reading? Isabella would do nothing to damage her daughter's right to rule after her because she knows what a snake her husband is (much as she loved Ferdinand, she wasn't stupid). And she would know that anything derogatory could be used by Ferdinand (or an ambitious husband) against Juana.

Juana's problems were: her father and her husband, both of whom issued coins with XX & Juana (insert names for XX), each declaring himself the legitimate king of Castile (the bigger and best of the two kingdoms). When her husband died, her father took over as the regent for her son, even though she should have been the sole monarch by Isabella's will.

How to solve: give Ferdinand something else to do about the time Philip dies, a massive invasion somewhere, a long-term illness of his own, something. This will give Juana time enough to reach Castile and establish herself as the Queen. Once she's crowned and running things, Ferdinand can come and try to impose anything he likes (himself as regent for Carlos), but the Castilians aren't buying what he's selling. Do not find Juana another husband to fall in love with (part of her problem).

As stated, the bio is dated, but considering that the author provides a source, and Isabel's controlling relationship of her kids, plus the fraught relationship she had with Juana, and her dislike of her Habsburg son-in-law (her dislike was for a more personal reason, namely the way that he treated Juana and the Burgundian court's "lax" morality, than Fernando's), lead me to believe the idea has legs. Remember, this ISN'T dying Isabel in 1504 begging Fernando not to remarry to disinherit Juana, this is a healthier 1501/02 queen who is concerned for the future of her country - the country she's helped purge of anyfaith BUT Catholicism, that she's helped place at the forefront of the European political arena, and now, she sees the possibility that Juana/Philippe are going to wreck that.

That said, when Juana was proclaimed queen (Spanish sovereigns don't get crowned, they just get sworn in), the nobility were hoping for a kinder mistress than Isabel (who cancelled all the grants she had made during her reign, excepting the marquessate of Moya, on her deathbed; swore an oath to the Muslims and Jews, then violated it; instituted the "fforeign" inquisition in Castile (the Castilian one was largely defunct before Isabel's reintroduction of it at the urging of Torquemada and Talavera, and a replica of the Aragonese one was the type that was created). And they saw through Fernando, and wanted Juana. But then, when Philippe died and Fernando took over again, things went on as they had before.
 
Then the problems is the nobles going along with Ferdinand. If they don't, he's stalled at the gate.

There was a pretty narrow majority in the Cortes (led by the duke of Najera) to decide in favour against Fernando, IIRC. And quite a few Castilians only sided with him after he read the codicil of Isabel's will (this was at Toro in January 1505) which contained the clause of Fernando being Juana's viceroy should the new queen be absent, unfit or unwilling to rule.

Stall him from reading the will - different executor maybe? Or just let a few Castilians decide to send the Aragonese packing bag and baggage. Then all Juana's gotta worry about is husband-dear, who, unfortunately was just as bad.
 
Philip dying in Burgundy 1503 will settle a lot of things. Two sons and no meddlesome husband to worry about. Isabella can give her daughter the crown and perhaps Juana can be somewhat sane if they keep her away from the low countries.
 
Philip dying in Burgundy 1503 will settle a lot of things. Two sons and no meddlesome husband to worry about. Isabella can give her daughter the crown and perhaps Juana can be somewhat sane if they keep her away from the low countries.

Would be interesting to see what la Loca can do. If she was twelve-o-clock-gone-cuckoo she had several extremely lucid moments - for instance, she was canny enough a politician to not take sides in the Comuneros revol, and on several occasions, she demonstrated enough nous to indicate that even if no Isabel 2.0, she was certainly not someone to be steamrolled. However, when the purpose of keeping her incarcerated to prevent her from being figleaf of legitimacy for a rebel government, her religion was what proved problematic to explain away. So imprisoned she stayed, even once the Spanish thrones were secure under Karl V.

Not having a corpse to lug around the whole time (Philippe being in Burgundy) can also perhaps remove one aspect of the "insanity". A curious fact is that OTL after her widowhood, Fernando offered her to Henry VII as a way of securing her younger sister's future as queen of England. Now, Philippe had likewise offered Margarethe of Austria (with her fat dowry) as a replacement bride to Henry after Elizabeth of York died. Which could make for interesting times - particularly if Fernando (although he's too savvy a statesman to probably do it) pulls off a Henry-Juana match.
 
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I always understood that Henry VII asked about Juana and Fernando discouraged him. With Fernando's plans (to take over), wedding her to a king likely to want to exercise said Kingship, is not likely.
 
ITTL Henry VII would not be so obsessed about Juana like IOTL-he would not meet her because her trip from Netherlands after Isabella's death is butterflied away. And Juana's fertility won't impress him as much as IOTL-she has only 4 kids instead of 6.
Mary Queen of Hungary and Catherine Queen of Portugal are never born.
 
ITTL Henry VII would not be so obsessed about Juana like IOTL-he would not meet her because her trip from Netherlands after Isabella's death is butterflied away. And Juana's fertility won't impress him as much as IOTL-she has only 4 kids instead of 6.
Mary Queen of Hungary and Catherine Queen of Portugal are never born.

Say what? Who butterflied Isabella's death? Did I miss something (again)? I thought Kellan was going to butterfly her father's takeover.
 
Say what? Who butterflied Isabella's death? Did I miss something (again)? I thought Kellan was going to butterfly her father's takeover.
BlueFlowwer proposed that Philip is dying in 1503 and Juana is kept away from Low Countries so at the time of Isabella's death Juana is already in Spain and don't need to travel there from Netherlands.
 
I always understood that Henry VII asked about Juana and Fernando discouraged him. With Fernando's plans (to take over), wedding her to a king likely to want to exercise said Kingship, is not likely.

Fernando wanted to use said marriage to leverage Henry VII to do something about Katherine, rather than just have her kicking around the court. And Juana would be required in England, some of the time, which would've left Fernando with a free hand in Castile (according to Isabel's will).

ITTL Henry VII would not be so obsessed about Juana like IOTL-he would not meet her because her trip from Netherlands after Isabella's death is butterflied away. And Juana's fertility won't impress him as much as IOTL-she has only 4 kids instead of 6.
Mary Queen of Hungary and Catherine Queen of Portugal are never born.

Four kids (all surviving) is still a good innings, esp. since three of his four kids that survived past the age of five are still alive.

Say what? Who butterflied Isabella's death? Did I miss something (again)? I thought Kellan was going to butterfly her father's takeover.

I was also wondering who got rid of it? If Isabel's still kicking, then Juana can't be queen.

BlueFlowwer proposed that Philip is dying in 1503 and Juana is kept away from Low Countries so at the time of Isabella's death Juana is already in Spain and don't need to travel there from Netherlands.

Juana wasn't mad about being in Spain (away from her husband and kids), and the only reason she stayed was because of her condition (she was pregnant with Ferdinand I). And even then, her mother tried to detain her in Spain ALAP, by taking her first to one town and then another, using the excuse that it would be easier to get a ship from there (Laredo? I think) - since the war with France meant it would be difficult for Juana to return to the Low Countries the way she had come to Castile (via France, wherein Philippe had pledged allegiance to the French king at Paris).
 
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