Juana la Loca isn't mad

Md139115

Banned
According to the Wikipedia article you cited (in its present form), she wasn't mad, but a Protestant!

For the sake of assuming that she genuinely was insane, and not a victim of Spanish ultra-Catholicism, I'll speculate as follows:

It is entirely possible that with a capable Juana running Spain and Naples, and Ferdinand handling Austria, Charles V would have far more freedom of action to respond to crises in his realms. This could result in a far bigger disaster for the Ottomans outside the gates of Vienna (and possibly an expulsion from Hungary), the Schmalkaldic League being utterly crushed, and him living considerably longer than he did in OTL.
 
What would have happened if Joanna the Mad hadn't gone mad? Supposedly she had been very intelligent as a child, and as it was she was supposedly more a victim of circumstances than really insane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_of_Castile
You have to assume she was mad in the first place. She was physically and psycologically mistreated by her husband and developed a dependency to him due this. His father used her as a pawn for his ambitions and made her a prisioner for life so he could rule over Castile for 10 more years. Then his son keeps her locked in the same castle so he can rule over her kingdom.
Every time she took a decission politically it was always sound and as a child she was described to be brilliant. She was only use to obtain power and after her mother died she had no real political allies eventhough she had a chance in 1520 but that's another story.
Juana was villinized,charicaturized and degraded by everyone since she step foot on Flanders because she was unlucky enough to have claims over Castille while spending half of her life out of it.
A tragic figure indeed,I wonder why so little has been written over her.
 
She almost certainly wasn't mad at all but was instead a victim of extreme control and confinement at the hands of her father and husband. She was known for being bright and as Padilla pointed out above, when she was given any decision making authority she did very well. Juana was an unfortunate pawn in the power games for the Spanish crown.
 
A different husband might be the best solution. Juana II of Castile and her husband Manuel I of Portugal might be a good scenario.
 
According to the Wikipedia article you cited (in its present form), she wasn't mad, but a Protestant!

For the sake of assuming that she genuinely was insane, and not a victim of Spanish ultra-Catholicism, I'll speculate as follows:

It is entirely possible that with a capable Juana running Spain and Naples, and Ferdinand handling Austria, Charles V would have far more freedom of action to respond to crises in his realms. This could result in a far bigger disaster for the Ottomans outside the gates of Vienna (and possibly an expulsion from Hungary), the Schmalkaldic League being utterly crushed, and him living considerably longer than he did in OTL.

I would argue that rather you could say she was a sceptic at best based on that. I believe at the time the only Christian denomination outside Catholicism and apart from the orthodox church would've been the Hussites in Bohemia. Humanism possibly as well.

Could I get sources on Philip-Joana relationship? I know he was a philanderer and attempted to usurp her authority but I was unaware he was physically abusive.

She certainly was a victim of circumstances beyond her control based on the Wikipedia entry and her father took advantage of her grief for Philip to play the madness card. I can't speak to the veracity of the claim that she kept Philips' body with her but to give a contemporary comparison Maximilian I (her father in law) after the death of his 1st wife (Mary of Burgundy) would travel with his coffin everywhere.

Charles grew up in Ghent since he was 3 and didn't see his mum again until he was 16. I doubt they had much of a relationship.

Ferdinand II's smear campaign & locking her up in the castle was probably the most determinant factor. And per the Wikipedia article, he tried to name Ferdinand I (HRE) his heir before changing his mind at last minute because he didn't like Charles (I think he didn't like competition in terms of authority hence bad relations with Juana, Philip & Charles; Ferdinand grew up under him/close to him so he must've viewed him as acceptable); that probably set up an initially rocky relationship so Ferdinand can't vouch for Juana, he was even sent to Flanders in 1518 after Charles arrived before returning only to go to Austria in 1519 when Maximilian I died

The comuneros revolt again adds another song to the Juana-Charles relationship. Those revolting attempted to use her to legitimise the revolt and also considered Ferdinand (the younger brother) I definitely think Charles's action afterwards were really messed up given how she refused to get involved to his benefit though, but I hope I've provided some broader context.
 
Is there a scenario for Juana to remain powerful or if that's not on the cards to at least do better than OTL?
 
Juana was not mad. She was victimized by first her husband then by her father, all in the name of power. Her children (save the youngest) were taken from her and raised to the mantra of "mama's crazy" - but if she were truly crazy, would a child be left to her care? No, the baby would have been taken for her (Catherine, the baby) own safety and used as treaty bait like her sisters. Juana didn't have the support she needed to rule, not with her father's power grab after her husband's death.
 
Unless by mad you mean pissed off. I'd be that way if first my husband wanted to usurp my birthright and then my father just grabbed it in the name of my son.
 
Is there a scenario for Juana to remain powerful or if that's not on the cards to at least do better than OTL?
She had the option on becoming the queen of Castile in 1520 and depose his son but she refused.If you mean before that you need her to stay in the Iberian peninsula.Isabel wanted to become a nun so if for some reason she is allowed to do it Juana would most likely marry with Manuel instead of going to Flanders as Portugal was seeing as a higher priority diplomatically than the Habsburgs.
 
Could I get sources on Philip-Joana relationship? I know he was a philanderer and attempted to usurp her authority but I was unaware he was physically abusive.

The basic story is that she loved her husband well beyond a political marriage and he only used her to get to the throne. In 1502 she was locked in castle La Mota by her parents who hated Philip and his Spanish ambitions and wanted to prevent her from returning to him. After two years spent pining away for her husband she was allowed to return to Flanders where she found that her husband had a string of mistresses and lovers. When she objected to his philandering (she cut the hair of one of his mistresses) he had her confined in her rooms less than a month after her return. (I've read that she held a hunger strike and "walked into walls" while imprisoned by Philip but I've not seen any good citations for that or for him being physically abusive. It wouldn't surprise me but I don't think there's any corroboration for it.) After Philip passed her father then imprisoned her again in her room from 1506 until her death. Because of the machinations of her parents and husband the woman spent most of her adult life locked in various bedrooms.

Initially Joanna had fully intended to rule in her own name however, both her parents and Philip worked to spread the idea of her madness. Philip, because once her parents died he could rule in her stead. And her parents, because they wanted to do everything possible to prevent Joanna from inheriting and giving Philip the crown. Then after Philip's death her father found it a convenient excuse not to give up power.

Had Joanna not been labeled mad I fully expect she would have had a "tragic accident" soon after taking the throne and Philip would step in.
 
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I would say that she was very disturbed. She became jealously obsessed with her philandering husband closing on acute paranoia. She couldn't understand that her marriage was a political mariage and not a romantic. Although i admit that her being a queen, made that she couldn't possibly escape this situation. And this certainly made her more and more unbalanced. But if she would have lived today, i think, she would have got a divorce and still would be arrested afterwards for stalking her former husband after several restraining orders.

As for her strict upraising as stated on the english wikipedia site, i am a bit suspicious. How she was treated sounds horrific and traumatizing, but there's only one 19th century English indirect source. The infamous spanish inquisition is mentioned here. In this time they were involved in researching the convertos and moriscos and fake conversions, not with internal heresies or protestants. My alarmbel "Black inquisition myth" rings. It makes me wonder if 1) the source has done some cherrypicking in the correspondence he used. 2) this was exceptional for the time. It at least makes me doubt if her upbringing had the defining influence on her mental state.
 
The basic story is that she loved her husband well beyond a political marriage and he only used her to get to the throne. In 1502 she was locked in castle La Mota by her parents who hated Philip and his Spanish ambitions and wanted to prevent her from returning to him. After two years spent pining away for her husband she was allowed to return to Flanders where she found that her husband had a string of mistresses and lovers. When she objected to his philandering (she cut the hair of one of his mistresses) he had her confined in her rooms less than a month after her return. (I've read that she held a hunger strike and "walked into walls" while imprisoned by Philip but I've not seen any good citations for that or for him being physically abusive. It wouldn't surprise me but I don't think there's any corroboration for it.) After Philip passed her father then imprisoned her again in her room from 1506 until her death. Because of the machinations of her parents and husband the woman spent most of her adult life locked in various bedrooms.

Initially Joanna had fully intended to rule in her own name however, both her parents and Philip worked to spread the idea of her madness. Philip, because once her parents died he could rule in her stead. And her parents, because they wanted to do everything possible to prevent Joanna from inheriting and giving Philip the crown. Then after Philip's death her father found it a convenient excuse not to give up power.

Had Joanna not been labeled mad I fully expect she would have had a "tragic accident" soon after taking the throne and Philip would step in.

I stand corrected in that regard, however the implication of an assassination seems a bit far-fetched, that'd cause a lot more problems for Philip especially with Ferdinand of Aragon, and there are no other Infantas to wed to help legitimise his rule, plus they had 2 sons young at that point (more kids to maintain the house). If Juana were to die first, Ferdinand II would immediately keep all the kids in Castille and be declared regent for them, the Cortes would certainly support him over a foreign Duke with no connections at least until Ferdinand becomes overbearing (I wouldn't be surprised is Charles in Ghent is deposed as heir and his younger brother Ferdinand made heir). Philip would have to leave Spain.
 
The basic story is that she loved her husband well beyond a political marriage and he only used her to get to the throne. In 1502 she was locked in castle La Mota by her parents who hated Philip and his Spanish ambitions and wanted to prevent her from returning to him. After two years spent pining away for her husband she was allowed to return to Flanders where she found that her husband had a string of mistresses and lovers. When she objected to his philandering (she cut the hair of one of his mistresses) he had her confined in her rooms less than a month after her return. (I've read that she held a hunger strike and "walked into walls" while imprisoned by Philip but I've not seen any good citations for that or for him being physically abusive. It wouldn't surprise me but I don't think there's any corroboration for it.) After Philip passed her father then imprisoned her again in her room from 1506 until her death. Because of the machinations of her parents and husband the woman spent most of her adult life locked in various bedrooms.

Initially Joanna had fully intended to rule in her own name however, both her parents and Philip worked to spread the idea of her madness. Philip, because once her parents died he could rule in her stead. And her parents, because they wanted to do everything possible to prevent Joanna from inheriting and giving Philip the crown. Then after Philip's death her father found it a convenient excuse not to give up power.

Had Joanna not been labeled mad I fully expect she would have had a "tragic accident" soon after taking the throne and Philip would step in.
This could explain a lot of her behavior. But what do you make of her digging up and towing her husbands body through Spain?
 
I stand corrected in that regard, however the implication of an assassination seems a bit far-fetched, that'd cause a lot more problems for Philip especially with Ferdinand of Aragon, and there are no other Infantas to wed to help legitimise his rule, plus they had 2 sons young at that point (more kids to maintain the house). If Juana were to die first, Ferdinand II would immediately keep all the kids in Castille and be declared regent for them, the Cortes would certainly support him over a foreign Duke with no connections at least until Ferdinand becomes overbearing (I wouldn't be surprised is Charles in Ghent is deposed as heir and his younger brother Ferdinand made heir). Philip would have to leave Spain.

You are correct. I meant if she was already queen and both Ferdinand and Isabella were dead. Then Philip would presumably be declared regent for his children.
 
This could explain a lot of her behavior. But what do you make of her digging up and towing her husbands body through Spain?

Though the question isn't directed at me, allow me if you would to put forth an answer. We could point to depression theory i.e. she suffered from immense depression/grief and couldn't bare to part with him. I'd also like to point to my example of Maximilian I always going with a coffin wherever he went after Mary of Burgundy's death as another although slightly less morbid manifestation of grief in this family. Both are descendants of Philippa of Lancaster via the House de Aviz, though signs of mental illness or what some would deem excessive grieving don't appear until the around Juana & Maximilian's generation, as far as I could tell ( I could be wrong; also given that singular connection and lack of documented family history of mental illness, I'm inclined to believe that hereditary family illness isn't the case)
 
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Though the question isn't directed at me, allow me if you would to put forth an answer. We could point to depression theory i.e. she suffered from immense depression/grief and couldn't bare to part with him. I'd also like to point to my example of Maximilian I always going with a coffin wherever he went after Mary of Burgundy's death as another although slightly less morbid manifestation of grief in this family. Both are descendants of Philippa of Lancaster via the House de Aviz, though signs of mental illness or what some would deem excessive grieving don't appear until the around Juana & Maximilian's generation, as far as I could tell ( I could be wrong).

I wish I could find the reference (it was a book), but the author's take on Juana's behavior is that she's crazy like a fox; that there was a purpose to the display of the body (proof he was dead was part of it). You have to also remember that in the 16th century, people were used to seeing death and dead bodies (and if my dog stops walking across my keyboard I may actually find my point); she didn't want there to be any question that she was alive and well, but grieving. She should have ruled, but so many men were against women in power and Ferdinand was a wily opponent - she was an amateur in this fight. I'll keep looking for the book.
 
I think you need only to have Ferdinand die before Philip and Juana will never declared mad. She and Philip will likely fought over the government of Castile and Aragon but he need her as ruler at least in name for having power around Spain so can not anymore confine her anywhere. He can maybe receive the marital crown of either Aragon (who will go likely to Charles with Juana as regent) or Castile (to Juana alone) but will be likely excluded from having real power and from any council of regency for his children because he was seen as too much French so he need to govern behind Juana
 
Here's a thread I had on a similar topic - although that was whether she was actually mad, rather than preventing her lapse in the first place. Interestingly enough, her mother deserves just as much blame (apparently) as what's been heaped on her husband and father through the centuries.

As to her being Protestant, it wasn't so much Protestantism that she was in favour of or against Catholicism, merely she prefered the French brand they had in Burgundy to the dry Castilian version. Once she was incarcerated, after the Communeros, there was a gallery of the palace devoted as a chapel. Juana first wanted it decorated a la Burgundy, then threw a hissy when it was, and they stripped it down to a la Espagnol, and she threw another hissy, and finally they just sorta left it. What she would do is go to chapel, but refuse to take the host, however she would insist that inspite of it bypassing her, it be offered to the Infanta Catalina.
 
Here's a thread I had on a similar topic - although that was whether she was actually mad, rather than preventing her lapse in the first place. Interestingly enough, her mother deserves just as much blame (apparently) as what's been heaped on her husband and father through the centuries.

As to her being Protestant, it wasn't so much Protestantism that she was in favour of or against Catholicism, merely she prefered the French brand they had in Burgundy to the dry Castilian version. Once she was incarcerated, after the Communeros, there was a gallery of the palace devoted as a chapel. Juana first wanted it decorated a la Burgundy, then threw a hissy when it was, and they stripped it down to a la Espagnol, and she threw another hissy, and finally they just sorta left it. What she would do is go to chapel, but refuse to take the host, however she would insist that inspite of it bypassing her, it be offered to the Infanta Catalina.

Exactly, Juana was almost surely not mad, all the episodes of her madness can be justified with other causes: the contrast between the rigidy of the court life and faith in Spain and the much more rich and frivolous court and relaxed religion in the Low Countries is more than enough to disorienting the young Juana and put her in a big confict between that who her husband and her mother want from her (and are really different things), then she became Spain's heir, was left there by her husband (who had a very bad personal and political relationship with her parents), her own parents tried to force her to stay away from her husband and children (and forced her to left to them her youngest son of few months pratically as hostage) aftyer teaching her who her place was with her husband. Add to this who from the beginning Juana was totally in love with Philip and he not at all and she was suffering, jealous and the confessor imposed by her mother was surely not helping her to adapt to her new country (and likely actively constrasting that).
If only she had longer someone (Isabel, her son, Juan or his child) between her and the heritage of Spain her life would have been much easier...
Surely she was a very different woman from her mother and had few things in common with her father and about the question of the testament of Isabel, I think her mother never wanted put in danger Juana's right to the crown but only keep Spain safely away from Philip's rule (she hated that French-lover son-in-law and tried everything to keep him away from the crown of Castile, that was only her last desperate tentative) and I am pretty sure the manner in which Ferdinand used that clause had her revolting in her grave.
I think also who Karl is the last person to blame for the suffering of his mother, he do not knew her, believed to what others told him, and likely discovered the truth only years after arriving in Spain and in any case when he was in the position for doing something for her was too late and freeing her too dangeorous for him and the stability of Spain (and we can not exclude who the guilt for his part in his mother's suffering was one of the reason for which he decided to spend his last years in a monastery).
 
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