Ju88 divebombing question

[Catspoke]

I have seen the forum history and there are a number of fast Ju88 as a level bomber only (no divebombing capability) threads and the Germans usually do better in these TLs (its so fast, Hurricanes can't catch it, has longer range, availiable in numbers earlier etc.).

I am questioning if removing the dive bombing requirement from that plane would have really helped Germany much (same as with the HE177 for that matter).

Questions about this:

1) Did the German use the Ju88 much as a long range precision accuracy dive bomber????, (I know it was used bombing ships but what about land tragets?), It seems this capability would be missed in Russia especially?

2) I have also read about Ju88s escaping in the BoB doing these long shallow dives, would that kind of capability be worse if the airframe wasn't strenghtened for dive bombing? (the dive bombing strengthened HE177 also did this in the baby blitz, another oftened ATL plane). Perhaps your just fast enough you don't have to worry about doing that?

3) Wasn't the Ju88 kind of expensive compared to a HE111 or purpose built level bomber. Why would you build such an expensive plane if it wasn't going to have these extra capabilities like dive bombing?

4) Being in engineering work, we are often relieved when some other component group has a problem forcing a delay and we won't have to admit to our own delays, how much of the Ju88 (or HE177) production delays would have happened anyway because there are other problems and production would be late just the same?

 

[zoomar]

I'm not sure what you are asking.

The Ju-88 was designed as a high speed light-medium bomber. It, unlike the He-177, was small, manuverable, and stressing it for dive bombing was very appropriate. The Ju-88 was equivalent to the Soviet Pe-2, which was also an excellent dive bomber.

The Ju-88 was really not ideal as a level bomber, high speed or otherwise. It did fair slightly better in the BoB because of its higher speed than the He-111 and Do-17/Do-215. You're certainly correct that RLM insistence that heavier bombers like the He-177 and Do-217 be stressed for dive bombing had little value and probably made at least the He-177 a far less capable warplane.

I'm also not sure what you are referring to about Ju-88 "production delays"? I'm pretty sure the Ju-88 was produced in far greater numbers than other German bombers, plus it was much more adaptable to production as a very effective heavy fighter. The Ju-88 actually seems to be one of the few instances where Germany got things completely right with its bombers.

 

[Catspoke]

I'm not sure what you are asking.
I'm also not sure what you are referring to about Ju-88 "production delays"? I'm pretty sure the Ju-88 was produced in far greater numbers than other German bombers, plus it was much more adaptable to production as a very effective heavy fighter. The Ju-88 actually seems to be one of the few instances where Germany got things completely right with its bombers.

Many alternate threads on this forum have the Ju88 produced without the dive bomber capability and the Germans doing much better because of it (same with the HE177) because the planes are more capable and arrive earlier (without the need to redesign them for divebombing).

I am thinking the Germans really don't do any better because likely the planes would have been delayed for other reasons (i.e. the Ju88 appears in Sept 39 just the same but not earlier) and/or the divebombing (at least in the JU88) was a useful feature of the plane that would have been missed.

 

[zoomar]

Many alternate threads on this forum have the Ju88 produced without the dive bomber capability and the Germans doing much better because of it (same with the HE177) because the planes are more capable and arrive earlier (without the need to redesign them for divebombing).

I am thinking the Germans really don't do any better because likely the planes would have been delayed for other reasons (i.e. the Ju88 appears in Sept 39 just the same but not earlier) and/or the divebombing (at least in the JU88) was a useful feature of the plane that would have been missed.

I don't know about the other threads, but I agree with your last paragraph. Giving the Ju-88 a dive-bombing capability had no important impact on its introduction (it was in widespread service when it was first needed as a level bomber), and probably had little impact on its capability as a level bomber anyway. While Germany had no bombers that were really capable of mounting the Blitz, both the He-111 and Do-217 were more suited to this role than the Ju-88, which was much more versatile.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I have seen the forum history and there are a number of fast Ju88 as a level bomber only (no divebombing capability) threads and the Germans usually do better in these TLs (its so fast, Hurricanes can't catch it, has longer range, availiable in numbers earlier etc.).

I am questioning if removing the dive bombing requirement from that plane would have really helped Germany much (same as with the HE177 for that matter).

Yes it would help, but there were so many other issues with the German war effort that it wouldn't be enough to help that much on its own. It certainly would improve survivability during the BoB, which would mean more bomber crews surviving for use later on, which slows the decline of the Luftwaffe as an offensive force, particularly on the Eastern Front.

The Ju88 wasn't a dive bomber as originally designed. In fact the first 3 prototypes did not have the capability, because when the speed bomber requirement was issued in 1935 the Luftwaffe was run by competent professionals that realized the limitations of dive bombing. By 1938 when the redesigns were ordered, Udet was in charge and ready to screw up all of Germany's bombers. The Ju88 was suddenly required to do something it wasn't designed to do, which took about 6 months to 'fix', though it never really was fixed and the design was compromised as a result. It weighed more and was slower and more expensive and more time consuming to build after the adjustments even though the dive bombing capability was never really used because it wasn't very good at dive bombing.

Questions about this:

1) Did the German use the Ju88 much as a long range precision accuracy dive bomber????, (I know it was used bombing ships but what about land tragets?), It seems this capability would be missed in Russia especially?

No. Dive bombing was very rare for the Ju88 because it never really was able to manage more than a 45-60 degree dive (pretty much glide bombing, not dive), which wasn't as accurate as needed, it lacked an automatic dive pullout IIRC, which made it much more dangerous to dive with, as the high speeds caused black outs, and it's dive bombing capabilities weren't really ever perfected, as the Ju88 wasn't designed as a dive bomber and was shoe horned into that role, which compromised the design.

2) I have also read about Ju88s escaping in the BoB doing these long shallow dives, would that kind of capability be worse if the airframe wasn't strenghtened for dive bombing? (the dive bombing strengthened HE177 also did this in the baby blitz, another oftened ATL plane). Perhaps your just fast enough you don't have to worry about doing that?

It could shallow dive, which was about 30 degrees, even without the full dive bombing modifications that were made in the design. And yes, being fast enough in level flight means it isn't necessary to bleed altitude for speed and potentially risk stalling if fighters chase it long enough.

Without the dive redesign it would have been several tons lighter, which means a greater bomb load and speed.

3) Wasn't the Ju88 kind of expensive compared to a HE111 or purpose built level bomber. Why would you build such an expensive plane if it wasn't going to have these extra capabilities like dive bombing?

Yes it was more expensive because it didn't have as much time as the He111 to rationalize its production and thus make it less expensive to produce. Also the dive modifications increased cost and production time. As a level bomber, which it was designed as, it wasn't that expensive for being a next generation design. It's advantage was its speed and survivability compared to the HE111 (also longer range and bigger bomb load with fewer crew members).

The He111 was just an aging design and a better bomber was needed; the Luftwaffe felt that it needed a fast bomber that could outrun enemy fighters, which in its level bomber stage of development, i.e. its initial design, it was fast than contemporary fighters like the Hurricane. Plus the better range, bomb load, fewer crew, and adaptability to other roles made it a major improvement over the He111.

As the Battle of Britain demonstrated, the HE111 couldn't survive in daylight combat against a functional air defense system. Of course it had about a year or so left in it as a night bomber and over Russia when its air force was neutralized early in Barbarossa.

4) Being in engineering work, we are often relieved when some other component group has a problem forcing a delay and we won't have to admit to our own delays, how much of the Ju88 (or HE177) production delays would have happened anyway because there are other problems and production would be late just the same?

Depends on what they include in the design. The increased weight of the air frame thanks to the dive bombing requirement necessitated a new landing gear system that really delayed production because it was so complicated. It meant that there were only 1-5 produced per month in 1939.

The redesigns cost about 6 months, so really it should have been ready in March 1939 and shouldn't have experienced the production delays caused by the landing gear. That would mean it would ramp up quickly and probably result in over 1000 units in 1939 assuming to stayed closer to its original level bomber roots.

The production resources were already set aside and were waiting idle, so if it enters production early, it doesn't really cost Germany anything in terms of manpower, raw materials, or production capacity that was just sitting idle.

 

[Just Leo]

One thing that is curious is that later variants of the Ju-88, Ju-188, and Ju-388 never got any lighter than the original overweight Ju-88. Perhaps it was the German equivalent to Grumman Aircraft's "Schwendler Factor". The FW-200 did not use the Schwendler factor. Weight increases during the development period also include the installation of a combat cabin with proper crew stations, equipment, armament and armor, a ventral gondola, as well as self-sealing tanks. Is it just possible that the original strength factor would have proved insufficient at some stage of service? They had plenty of opportunities to fix it, if it was deemed a problem.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

One thing that is curious is that later variants of the Ju-88, Ju-188, and Ju-388 never got any lighter than the original overweight Ju-88. Perhaps it was the German equivalent to Grumman Aircraft's "Schwendler Factor". The FW-200 did not use the Schwendler factor. Weight increases during the development period also include the installation of a combat cabin with proper crew stations, equipment, armament and armor, a ventral gondola, as well as self-sealing tanks. Is it just possible that the original strength factor would have proved insufficient at some stage of service? They had plenty of opportunities to fix it, if it was deemed a problem.

I'm wondering if it had to do with minimizing the amount of retooling done.
The Ju188 was just a further adaptation of the Ju88B, so its very understandable why they didn't lower the weight, as its pretty much the same aircraft with a new cockpit and a few other minor improvements, such as more powerful engines.

As to the Ju288 and 388, I have no idea. They were different aircraft and needed to carry more bombs farther and faster, with the Ju388 having a pressurized cockpit. They were also just bigger aircraft, so its seems rather obvious that it would be heavier than the Ju88 or 188.

 

[Astrodragon]

Given the philosophy of the time, wouldn't a lighter Ju-88 just have put the weight back on by added guns/gunners/protection?

Or maybe Luftwaffe bombers were just overweight as a homage to Goering...

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Given the philosophy of the time, wouldn't a lighter Ju-88 just have put the weight back on by added guns/gunners/protection?

Or maybe Luftwaffe bombers were just overweight as a homage to Goering...

No, because the point was to be a speed bomber. The LW philosophy in 1935 was less protection, more speed. The pre-dive bomber prototype versions managed to achieve 360 mph in level flight, which was just about what the Spitfire Mk. I's speed. I do think that there would have been a 4th crew member with a rear machine gun, but that maybe would shave about 10 mph off of top speed, perhaps adding another 250 kgs, which would have been cancelled out by the Jumo 211B and later improvements that added an extra 100-400 mph per engine, which would probably increase speed more.

 

[Just Leo]

The early speedy Ju-88s were not combat worthy machines. Another not-combat-ready machine was the Breda 88 which also set speed records. When fitted with equipment as a war machine, it could not climb high enough to turn around and fly back to base. It served the war as bait, strategically placed at Italian air bases to waste Allied ammunition.

The tail of the -188 was highly lauded as an improvement over the -88 tail. The -288 was not a variant, but a completely different aircraft.

While the dive brake was removed from the type, the DH Mossie night fighters had a problem in that they needed a speed brake because they had considerable problems converting from tail-chase over-taking speed to an on-your-six firing mode without overshooting the target. Just sayin'.

 

[Catspoke]

The redesigns cost about 6 months, so really it should have been ready in March 1939 and shouldn't have experienced the production delays caused by the landing gear. That would mean it would ramp up quickly and probably result in over 1000 units in 1939 assuming to stayed closer to its original level bomber roots.

The production resources were already set aside and were waiting idle, so if it enters production early, it doesn't really cost Germany anything in terms of manpower, raw materials, or production capacity that was just sitting idle.

Thanks for this info, Wilking. I had never seen a complete explanation like that. 1000 extra units means you can pretty either much replace the DO17 at least by the Battle of France and some HE111s OR just have more planes available if you can find pilots, fuel and airbases/crew. Having more planes than pilots pre 1940 means something actually might be able to be done about training more pilots etc..

If you combine this 1000 planes with avoiding the Udet ME210 mess up and thus more thousands of planes you could potentially have a significantly larger Luftwaffe available in the 1941-1942 time frame (even if its just hundreds and not thousands of planes), which if put to good use means the Germans do better in that time frame, probably means at least Malta and Leningrad would have their supply completely cut and might starve in the 1941-1942 time frame (Airpower had to disappear OTL over those places because of conflicting priorities, Typhoon, etc..).

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Thanks for this info, Wilking. I had never seen a complete explanation like that. 1000 extra units means you can pretty either much replace the DO17 at least by the Battle of France and some HE111s OR just have more planes available if you can find pilots, fuel and airbases/crew. Having more planes than pilots pre 1940 means something actually might be able to be done about training more pilots etc..

If you combine this 1000 planes with avoiding the Udet ME210 mess up and thus more thousands of planes you could potentially have a significantly larger Luftwaffe available in the 1941-1942 time frame (even if its just hundreds and not thousands of planes), which if put to good use means the Germans do better in that time frame, probably means at least Malta and Leningrad would have their supply completely cut and might starve in the 1941-1942 time frame (Airpower had to disappear OTL over those places because of conflicting priorities, Typhoon, etc..).

Its going to replace obsolete equipment, as that was the plan IOTL. It is a massive improvement over the Do17Z, which was about 25% of the Luftwaffe bomber strength in 1939. It wasn't much less in May 1940 either.
With a better bomb load, being much faster (including than OTL versions), and with better survivability if hit, more bomber crews are going to survive and be available for later operations. Not only that, but the Do17 can exit production in 1939 instead of 1940 and save raw materials for other uses.

Also the earlier production of the Ju88, plus it being cheaper and require less materials to make than OTL and easier to boot would mean that future production from 1939 would be increased. So the 3k built in 1940 IOTL would be less than a TL where it is easier and cheaper to produce, plus 6 months more of production experience would make it produced more efficiently than IOTL. 1k for 1939 is perhaps an underestimate of what could have been produced in 9 months with this version of the Ju88.

Also it would be recognized as a speed bomber, not a medium bomber, so more focus would be given to get the Do217 medium bomber in as a true replacement for the He111, rather than use the Ju88 for longer in a role that it wasn't really intended.

The conversions though of the Ju88 would be available earlier, like in the fast recon role, reduces losses there, plus in the heavy fighter/night fighter role as the Ju88C. That has all sorts of fun uses: as a night fighter it was better than the Bf110, which instead could be used as a fighter-bomber, which it was much better suited for, and as an intruder it was brutally effective. In 1940-1 it could target fighter fields at night, just like it did bomber airfields, scattering bombs while coming in low. It could also operate as a fighter-bomber too. Both the Bf110 and Ju88C would be excellent in Erprobungsgruppe 210, an experimental unit that focused on fighter-bombing of targets like airfields and radar. The Ju88C would be as fast as the Bf110 and more maneuverable at lower speeds.

Yeah, there are all sorts of potential butterflies from an early Ju88 without divebombing.