Ju-52 gunship

Yeah... That would kind of work. The only problem was that they would probably be vulnerable to fighters and the World War that followed wasn't exactly a friendly environment for a slow-moving airplane crammed to the brim with weapons and ammunition. Having said that, the gunship would probably be more accurate than the heavy bomber. It's just that they were vulnerable to just about everything that could be thrown at it. It would be possible for the gunship to turn it's weapons on any incoming fighter or anti-air emplacement, but the fact that it's slow moving makes it an easy target.

Then you could apply fighter cover, the Spainish Civil War was not the 'heavy' in fighter numbers, a Ju-52 gunship fitted with say x4 MG-17s firing out of the left hand windows (removed) could provide useful support.

After that would be Poland, again, Germany had little enemy fighter problems, a Group of four squadrons of Ju-52 gunships (this time fitted with limited armour for protection) would prove very useful in dealing with columns of Polish Infantry matching to the front?

At this point the Ju-52 gunship fitted with say x4 MG-17s + 1 or 2 MGFF cannon(s) for more firepower?

This would also be useful for France, though I would suspect that losses would be higher for France than Poland?

The greatest use wuld be early in the invasion of the SU (1941), with little or no fighter cover the Soviet troops would suffer heavy losses to the German gunships.

Though by 1941, other types of aircraft would be being tested in the gunship role, along with various gun mixes, including the MG151/15 and the MG151/20 cannons?
 
The problem with this idea is that, early in the war, the germans barely had enough Ju-52s to handle important transport duties, so it's very hard to imagine them modifying any to ground-attack gunship roles. Also, by definition, gunships work best in asymmetrical warfare, against ground forces that lack air-support or truly effect anti-aircraft weapons. In Poland, troop columns could be very effectively strafed by Ju-87s, Hs-123s, and even Bf-109s, and these planes' armor or manuverability gave them some defense against AA.

However, in partisan warfare (behind the lines in the USSR and Balkans) such a craft would be very useful, with or without effecive night vision. The problem remains, however, that throughout WW2 the Germans never had enough transport aircraft, so it seems more likely to me gunships would be obsolescent or obsolete combat aircraft, not the still essential Ju-52 transport.

In the 1943-45 period I like the suggestion of using old He-111s or Do-17s/217s in the dedicated gunship role, which is a very different concept from the heavily armed ground attacker. Other options would be appropriated French bombers and Italian types such as the SM-79.

I wouldn't consider the B-25H a "gunship" in the context of this post. It was a heavily armed ground attack and antishipping aircraft. To some extent, Germany did try its own version of the B-25H, with Ju-88 C PAK 50 models, but performance was poor.
 
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Deleted member 1487

One of the Luftwaffe's biggest problems was that it never built a dedicated transport fleet. It had plenty of Ju52's, but they weren't dedicated to transport work. If Jeschonnek had accepted the plan to turn the Ju86's into trainers (there were over 1,000 of them BTW) and take the hundreds of Ju52's from service as trainers, the LW would have had a surplus of the aircraft.

In that case there would have been enough left to function in this role. I agree though that the only option would have been anti-guerilla work, as AA and fighters would have destroyed it. OTL the US only used their gunships in such a role. If they wanted them to survive that is.
 
One of the Luftwaffe's biggest problems was that it never built a dedicated transport fleet. It had plenty of Ju52's, but they weren't dedicated to transport work. If Jeschonnek had accepted the plan to turn the Ju86's into trainers (there were over 1,000 of them BTW) and take the hundreds of Ju52's from service as trainers, the LW would have had a surplus of the aircraft.

In that case there would have been enough left to function in this role. I agree though that the only option would have been anti-guerilla work, as AA and fighters would have destroyed it. OTL the US only used their gunships in such a role. If they wanted them to survive that is.


I doubt you can replace all the Ju-52's used as trainers with the remainder of the Ju-86's left after conversion to Ju-86P and losses.
Were there hundreds of Ju-86's around doing nothing OTL? Doesn't seem likely, I'd think that their numbers just attrited to basically nothing.
A total build of a 1000 isn't much in WWII terms.

Besides, weren't the Ju-86's already used in Lufthansa schools?
 

Deleted member 1487

I doubt you can replace all the Ju-52's used as trainers with the remainder of the Ju-86's left after conversion to Ju-86P and losses.
Were there hundreds of Ju-86's around doing nothing OTL? Doesn't seem likely, I'd think that their numbers just attrited to basically nothing.
A total build of a 1000 isn't much in WWII terms.

Besides, weren't the Ju-86's already used in Lufthansa schools?

1000 for training for just multi-engine aircraft training isn't bad at all. It would free up the remaining Ju52s. Richard Suchenwirth mentions it in his book "Historical Turning Points in the Air Force War". Apparently there were a number that could be constructed from spare parts.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Suchenwirth
 
No, as a converted people carrier, the Fw-200 is according to some even too vulnerable to be a naval bomber (several broke up in mid-air/on landing IIRC), although it was successfull as that early war.

Stuffing it with more weaponry and using it as a gunship would be a recipe for disaster.

It's also much too expensive. It's not exactly as if the Germans are awash in aircraftframes or engines.

Numbers built are also too low to be used for other purposes.
IRL it stopped in 1944 at less then 300 total, which is a puny amount in WWII numbers.

You're probably right, but I just really liked the overall look of the Condor and the idea of it packing some heavy, side-mounted firepower just seems like a really cool plane.

Was there any way they could have done it by developing a plane based on the Condor, only with a more sturdy air frame, one better suited to the mission?
 
1000 for training for just multi-engine aircraft training isn't bad at all. It would free up the remaining Ju52s. Richard Suchenwirth mentions it in his book "Historical Turning Points in the Air Force War". Apparently there were a number that could be constructed from spare parts.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Suchenwirth

Wait, out of a total build of about a 1000 according to you a 1000 could be provided to training schools?

You genuinely think that they would actually be able to construct more additional Ju-86's out of spare parts then were originally lost to enemy causes, ordinary crashes, conversions to Ju-86P standard and other causes?

That seems very unlikely...

Weren't according to you a total of 1000 built? Doesn't seem much.

Googling around, according to this site, only 470 were built in total.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/junkers-ju-86.asp

You're probably right, but I just really liked the overall look of the Condor and the idea of it packing some heavy, side-mounted firepower just seems like a really cool plane.

Was there any way they could have done it by developing a plane based on the Condor, only with a more sturdy air frame, one better suited to the mission?

If big is beautiful and cost is no objection, then I'd take the He-177B Greif... :eek:

I don't think it'll do bad at low altitude, although it's a giant target ofcourse. Coolness factor will be very high though. :p
 

Deleted member 1487

Wait, out of a total build of about a 1000 according to you a 1000 could be provided to training schools?

You genuinely think that they would actually be able to construct more additional Ju-86's out of spare parts then were originally lost to enemy causes, ordinary crashes, conversions to Ju-86P standard and other causes?

That seems very unlikely...

Weren't according to you a total of 1000 built? Doesn't seem much.

Googling around, according to this site, only 470 were built in total.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/junkers-ju-86.asp
According to Suchenwirth 1000 could be made available to training schools. Some of these could be constructed from spare parts. Apparently this historian found reference to the plan in LW documents when this was proposed constantly in the late 1930's. Whether the numbers are true...I don't know if I trust a website to be correct on that, because I've seen enough stuff blatantly false about various aircraft and general history online to trust much of anything that isn't sourced.
 
German ‘Gunship’ Development and Operational Use

Authors Note: this is just a very general timeline outline done for a bit of fun about German gunship aircraft development and operation use, also this should TL be taken with a ‘Large Pinch of Salt;) :D


1. Early Beginnings

Spanish Civil War

During the Spanish Civil War, several Ju-52 bombers are converted (a total of four) into what would be initially called anti infantry aircraft fitted with several MG’s facing out of the left side windows after they have been removed.

The four Ju-52 bombers that are converted have the following armament, x4 MG-17s firing out of the left hand windows, each MG-17 has 500 rounds ready to use, with another 4,000 rounds spare, though more ammunition can be carried. The combined rate of fire for the four MG-17s is 4,800 rounds per minute, the advantage over a conventional fighter(s) strafing is that the Ju-52’s merely ‘tip’ their wings and the pilot press the firing button.

The Ju-52 gunship is proved very good at staffing columns of infantry, along with trucks , achieving a much higher ‘kill’ level than strafing fighters, the only ‘down side; is that these Ju-52s need fighter cover, though if they were going on a bombing mission they would need fighter cover anyway.

This information about the success of this ‘ad hock’ conversion of four Ju-52’s is passed back to Germany, were this Ju-52 gunship is ordered to for an evaluation unit of 12 Ju-52 bombers for conversion to the Ju-52 gunship, with the same armament as the ones in Spain.

Gunship development 1937 – December 1938

With the evaluation squadron of 12 Ju-52 operational by mid 1937, an extensive testing program begins, the armament of x4 MG-17s remains, the 12 Ju-52 are fitted with extra armour for added protection for the crew that reload the x4 MG-17s.

During this time, several other aircraft are added to this program, these being two He-111s and two Ju-88s, both of these types require extensive conversion from their role as bombers to gunship this is considered too costly. Therefore, production of the Ju-52 could be, increased to produce the additional small numbers of Ju-52 gunships that are needed, this idea is, put before Goring in mid 1938.

Goring agrees and after consulting with Hitler, Ju-52 production is order to be increased to allow for the production of the Ju-52 gunship variant, however with such heavy demands on the Ju-52 in other areas production will never meet demand.

The experimental unit of Ju-52 gunships is declared an operational training and evaluation unit for this new type of weapon, with the first squadron working up to become operational by 1939.

Armament Variations 1937 – December 1938

Between 1937 and December 1938 the basic armament of the is the x4 MG-17s, in two of the 12 Ju-52s, this is increased to eight MG-17s by fitting two MG-17s firing out of each window, this calls for staggering each pair of MG-17s, so that the barrels can fire out of the window. However, the amount of ammunition is not increased.

Another two Ju-52s have two MG FF 20mm cannons fitted, however with a limited ammo supply of sixty-round drum magazines per cannon, these MG FF 20mm cannons have to be reloaded more times than the MG-17s have to. Though on the other hand the MG FF 20mm cannons do have more punch than the rifle calibre MG-17s, due to the ability to fire AP, HE and Incendiary projectiles.

Another solution to the MG FF 20mm cannon problem, was to fire one cannon, the while the second cannon is firing, the first cannon is reloaded, as the sixty-round drum magazine is relatively light, this can be done by one man in a few seconds. The crewmember that looks after the MG FF 20mm cannon has as a spare sixty-round drum magazine ready to reload once the current magazine has been, used up.

The ammunition problem is partially, solved by introducing special ninety-round drum magazines for the MG FF 20mm cannon, until the introduction of the MG-151/15 and the MG/151/20 cannons in 1941 the sixty-round drum magazines would remain common and the operational training and evaluation unit would only use the ninety-round drum magazines.

By late 1938, the armament has been refined into a ‘standard’ armament of x4 MG-17s and x2 MG FF cannons the MG-17s have a total of 4,000 rounds, with the cannons having a total of 1,200 rounds (in x20 60 round drums).

By the end of 1938, in Germany the numbers of Ju-52 gunships numbered only thirty, with the following breakdown

12 with the operational training and evaluation unit/squadron
12 with the first Ju-52 gunships squadron
6 under conversion, to form the second Ju-52 gunships squadron

The intention is to have three Ju-52 gunship squadrons each with 12 Ju-52 gunships by the end of 1939 two of these Ju-52 gunship squadrons will take part on the Poland campaign.

These numbers do not include the four Ju-52s gunships that are still in Spain.

1939

With the first Ju-52 gunships squadron operational in early January 1939 and the second in the process of forming, the tactics for the use of these gunships are left to the Group commander with little or no interference from High Command.

With production of the Ju-52 gunship unable to keep up with demand, a search is made of other available aircraft as a stopgap until Ju-52 production could meet demand, almost immediately the Ju-89 is selected, as there was no real need for this aircraft for any other role. The other reason is that their where enough parts available to produced up to 300 aircraft if needed, the Ju-89 was selected.

Ju-89 gunship Configuration

By February 1939, the configuration of the first Ju-89 gunship had been decided, this would be the same as the ‘standard’ armament of x4 MG-17s x2 MG FF cannons the MG-17s have a total of 8,000 rounds, with the cannons having a total of 1,200 rounds as the Ju-52s have. However heavier armaments are planned also the speed at which the first Ju-89 gunship comes available is considerable as the conversion work to build/convert a Ju-89 is relatively simple the experience gained converting the Ju-52s is also invaluable.

The first Ju-89 gunship will be operational with the operational training and evaluation squadron by the 1st October 1939 and should be operational by the end of the year.

Production (assembled from available parts) of the Ju-89 gunship will run at four per month, allowing a squadron to be formed in three months, this is grindingly slow, but it does allow the Ju-89s to be properly converted, the end result is a very well produced Ju-89 gunship.

The gunship variant of the Ju-89 will be listed as the Ju-89C1, with the C1a having the standard armament of x4 MG-17s x2 MG FF cannons, there will also be the C1b this will have an armament of x8 MG-17s x2 MG FF cannons, though production will concentrate on the C1a. The C1b will be, upgraded by local squadron mechanics for greater firepower, though the MG17s ammunition supply carried onboard each aircraft will remain unchanged.

March 1939

With the conversion of the first batch of Ju-89s, the third squadron is switch from Ju-52s to Ju-89s, the operational training and evaluation squadron, will have a mix is Ju-52s and Ju-89s until sufficient Ju-89s become available, then the Ju-52s will be converted back to their transport role.

This is only suppose to be temporary, however Ju-52 production will never be able to keep pace with demand the Ju-52s will be the end of 1940 will all have been returned to their transport role and none will remain as gunships.

April 1939

With the end of the Spanish Civil War on the 1st April 1939, the four Ju-52 gunships are returned to Germany, these four Ju-52s are added to the Group, though they will need a complete overhaul to bring them up to operational level, this will not be achieved until the end of 1939.

May/June/July/August 1939

The First and Second squadrons are operating Ju-52 the crews of these aircraft are becoming very skilled in taking out ground targets of all types, as all they are using up is fuel and ammo, the training has no restrictions and the crews are clocking a lot of hours practicing.

By the time the World War 2 has started at the beginning of September 1939, the Ju-52 crews consider themselves capable of taking on any target.

The intention was to have three Ju-52 gunship squadrons each with 12 Ju-52 gunships by September 1939 the two Ju-52 gunship squadrons would take part on the Poland campaign along with four of the new Ju-89 C1a gunships as well.

Poland September 1939

During the Polish Campaign, the First and Second squadrons are kept very busy supporting the various German Armies, by disrupting enemy troop movements, with total air supremacy the First and Second squadrons take no losses, though they do receive light damage from small arms fire.

The firepower of the two squadrons of Ju-52 gunships along with the, four Ju-89C-1a is formidable against soft-skinned targets such as infantry and trucks the Gunship Group [Authors note: I cannot think of a better name] during the Polish Campaign would perform all its duties very well.

Other countries take notice of the German Gunship, but most do not take very much interest in this program, as they see very little value in this type of aircraft.

Germany had little enemy fighter problems a Group of two squadrons of Ju-52 gunships along with four Ju-89s would prove very useful in dealing with columns of Polish Infantry matching to the front?

At the end of the Poland campaign, the Ju-52 and four Ju-89C-1a gunships fitted with and armament of x4 MG-17s and the x2 MG FF cannons is considered limited along with the ammunition capacity. The ammunition capacity will be, increased in 1940 for these aircraft from the current 8,000 rounds for the MG-17s to 10,000 rounds and the 1,200 rounds MG FF cannons will be, increased to 1,800 rounds.

The other problem is hitting power, the MG-17s though useful against infantry, they are little or no used against trucks a more powerful armament is needed.

October 1939

The four Ju-89 gunships becomes available to the operational training and evaluation squadron, with another three delivered by the end of October 1939, a further three will be delivered during November and December. By the end of December 1939, the operational training and evaluation squadron will have a full complement of 12 Ju-89 gunships, with additional Ju-89 gunships to follow in 1940.

November 1939

Two of the Ju-89 gunships have their armament upgraded from x4 MG-17s and the x2 MG FF cannons to x6 MG FF cannons this does increase the hitting power of the Ju-89 gunships, this variant is classified as the Ju-89C1c.

December 1939

By the end of 1939, the numbers of Ju-52 gunships numbered only thirty-four along with twelve Ju-89 C1a gunships. The cost of operating the Ju-52 and Ju-89 is relatively low, though the amount of ammunition used is much higher though for some odd reason this is not part of the operating cost of the gunships!

Gunship Group

12 Ju-52s + 12 Ju-89 C1a with the operational training and evaluation squadron
12 with the first Ju-52 gunships squadron
12 second Ju-52 gunships squadron

The third squadron is to be formed in early 1940 with twelve Ju-89 C1s.

The number of these gunships is very small, the German Air Force is spending very little resources on the Group in turn the Group has been able to forum a small but powerful unit without needing a new aircraft, just conversion of existing aircraft.

So far, the Gunship Group has had no losses and only minor battle damage to a few aircraft during the Poland Campaign, this success is reflected in the support being received from Goring who is taking a close interest in this Gunship Group.

What will 1940 bring for the Gunship Group?

To be continued (if there is any interest)?
 
I imagine that a postwar Luftwaffe might have made use of redundant Ju 52s as a "small war" gunship for the same reason the USAF used the C-47 as such in the 1960s - there were plenty of them (in a victory situation, we assume that that the -52 would have been supplanted by later types) and thus easy enough to get a hold of a few, they could operate from austere strips (the whole counter-insurgency thing - get 'em close to the action) easy enough to modify, and not a huge loss (save for the crews!) if/when they were lost.

Now, if the concept was proven, it would be interesting to imagine a Me 323 based gunship!
 
Interesting TL. I am a bit skeptical that they could come up with enough JU-89s to use...but I am willing to suspend my disbelief for such an interesting TL.

These things are going to get cut to bits if there is any fighter opposition at all...
 
These things are going to get cut to bits if there is any fighter opposition at all...

I was going to say that, but light flak would do just as well. Against any sort of serious air defences these things will be a whole crews worth of "sad duty to inform you" letters waiting to happen. It'd be nice to know what benefit the Luftwaffe thinks they will bring in the sort of war that's on it's way.
 
Gunship development 1937 – December 1938

During this time, several other aircraft are added to this program, these being two He-111s and two Ju-88s

Really nice TL, but 38 is way too early for 88s ...

EDIT: A Luftwaffe with a working Heavy Bomber means a good number of butterflies, a few in the Battle of Britain, and many more in Barbarossa
 
I imagine that a postwar Luftwaffe might have made use of redundant Ju 52s as a "small war" gunship for the same reason the USAF used the C-47 as such in the 1960s - there were plenty of them (in a victory situation, we assume that that the -52 would have been supplanted by later types) and thus easy enough to get a hold of a few, they could operate from austere strips (the whole counter-insurgency thing - get 'em close to the action) easy enough to modify, and not a huge loss (save for the crews!) if/when they were lost.

Now, if the concept was proven, it would be interesting to imagine a Me 323 based gunship!

Hi,

Have not though much about post war :D

I have thought of using a variant of the Me-323 the Me 323E-2WT "Rhino" later in WW2?
 
Interesting TL. I am a bit skeptical that they could come up with enough JU-89s to use...but I am willing to suspend my disbelief for such an interesting TL.

These things are going to get cut to bits if there is any fighter opposition at all...

Hi,

The Ju-89s I am thinking of them in the 200 range for numbers produced, that is not many spread over several years?

Yea enemy air power is going to a problem for the gunships, they will need fighter cover.
 
I was going to say that, but light flak would do just as well. Against any sort of serious air defences these things will be a whole crews worth of "sad duty to inform you" letters waiting to happen. It'd be nice to know what benefit the Luftwaffe thinks they will bring in the sort of war that's on it's way.

Hi,

As the Ju-89s were bombers, they should have enough armour to ptorec them from light AA fire and smals arms fire as well?
 
Really nice TL, but 38 is way too early for 88s ...

EDIT: A Luftwaffe with a working Heavy Bomber means a good number of butterflies, a few in the Battle of Britain, and many more in Barbarossa

Hi,

The Ju-88 was introduced in the end of 1936, so 1938 is not a problem?

The Ju-89 would not be used as a bomber?
 
Hi,

Have not though much about post war :D

I have thought of using a variant of the Me-323 the Me 323E-2WT "Rhino" later in WW2?

If you thought the Ju52 was vulnerable, you haven't seen one of these. The ME323 is a converted glider, slow as molasses, and about as manouverable as an ocean liner. A better target could not be imagined; in combat the crew's life expectancy would be a matter of seconds.

Stick to the Ju88/He111/Me110 types for ground attack; they have the speed, armor, and sturdy airframe needed for this type of work.
 
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