Ju-52 gunship

How likely would it be for a gunship variant of the JU-52 to exist? In a hypothetical Nazi Victory scenario, I can envision the Wehrmacht using fixed-wing gunships along with helicopters (assuming that they do have those) for counterinsurgency operations. Other than that, would there be any incentive for the Germans to develop such a thing? I know that the Second World War was pretty much gunship-unfriendly environment so yeah.

Anyway, the tentative configuration would be somewhat similar to the AC-47 with several MG-42s or at most three 20mm rapid fire cannons in the fuselage. So, what do you think?
 
Such a plane would be highly, highly vulnerable to fire in the daytime, and would not be worth a damn at night before the era of low light amplification.

Better to use the Ju-52s to transport cargo.
 
The Germans had some night vision devices in service in 1945, these could be adapted for gunship use. AC47s also made extensive use of flares for night operations.

I would note that the British in their decades long withdrawal from Empire with many low level wars never built a gunship of their own. I think a basic premse is that a country has enough airlift to spare planes for gunship work, and there's not many of those around.
 
If the Germans were going to make a gunship out of any of their transport aircraft, I'd think the Fw 200 Condor would be the one to build on.
 
The Germans had some night vision devices in service in 1945, these could be adapted for gunship use. AC47s also made extensive use of flares for night operations.

If I remember rightly the German night-vision devices were infrared searchlights - I'm not sure how practical these would be for a gunship. The US, with similar technology in the 1960s, didn't bother putting them on the AC-47 as far as I know. I'd say flares are the way to go for this.
 

CalBear

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They would need some sort of minigun to make the classic "Puff" style gunship work. Unless you have that your best bet is the B-25 method. Take a medium bomber, stuff it with as many heavy MG (or light cannon) as you can, and send it off to raise hell.

The B-25H had 14 .50 cal (8 fixed forward, 2 in the top turret that could fire forward, two waist guns, and a pair in the tail) a low velocity 75mm gun, and it could also carry either 8 5" rockets or 3,000 pounds of bombs (the "J" had even more, but many of them had the extra 4 guns, two on each side of the fuselage, removed in the field due to issues with the muzzle blast). You really didn't want to be anywhere close to where it was aiming.
 
Yeah those things were bad ass. I like to FW-200 idea, though it may be a bit heavy for the envisioned role, imo.
 

Hoist40

Banned
Gunships only work when the enemy has little ability to shoot back. Both the Allies and the Soviets had lots of light AA guns which would have quickly shot down such a gunship
 
The OP says hypothetical Nazi victory guerilla fighting, guerilla's before about 1970 had very limited ability to shoot down planes.
 
They would need some sort of minigun to make the classic "Puff" style gunship work. Unless you have that your best bet is the B-25 method. Take a medium bomber, stuff it with as many heavy MG (or light cannon) as you can, and send it off to raise hell.

The B-25H had 14 .50 cal (8 fixed forward, 2 in the top turret that could fire forward, two waist guns, and a pair in the tail) a low velocity 75mm gun, and it could also carry either 8 5" rockets or 3,000 pounds of bombs (the "J" had even more, but many of them had the extra 4 guns, two on each side of the fuselage, removed in the field due to issues with the muzzle blast). You really didn't want to be anywhere close to where it was aiming.

the Germans had this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_81_machine_gun

and they could have used the principle for heavier calibers also.
The MG81Z is not completely a minigun, but close enough.

The 81Z has a firing rate of approx 3000-3200 rpm

and edit: after reading some about this gun, i found that the germans had these guns mounted in pods for aircraft use (3 guns per pod) and in some case a ju88 would be carrying like 6 pods which would produce a cumulative gun rate of almost 60.000 RPM (according to Jane's Infantry Weapons). Think that pretty much makes such a plane a gunship, doesn't it?
 
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If the Germans were going to make a gunship out of any of their transport aircraft, I'd think the Fw 200 Condor would be the one to build on.

No, as a converted people carrier, the Fw-200 is according to some even too vulnerable to be a naval bomber (several broke up in mid-air/on landing IIRC), although it was successfull as that early war.

Stuffing it with more weaponry and using it as a gunship would be a recipe for disaster.

It's also much too expensive. It's not exactly as if the Germans are awash in aircraftframes or engines.

Numbers built are also too low to be used for other purposes.
IRL it stopped in 1944 at less then 300 total, which is a puny amount in WWII numbers.
 

sharlin

Banned
The JU-52 was at best, adequate in its role and would need to be replaced. The Condor, although a lovely looking plane was horribly fragile, as already has been mentioned, some of them broke up in flight/landing. I like the idea of a Mitchel type aircraft, crammed with MGs.
 
and edit: after reading some about this gun, i found that the germans had these guns mounted in pods for aircraft use (3 guns per pod) and in some case a ju88 would be carrying like 6 pods which would produce a cumulative gun rate of almost 60.000 RPM (according to Jane's Infantry Weapons). Think that pretty much makes such a plane a gunship, doesn't it?

With that kind of firepower, it would have made the Ju-88 into quite a formidable close support aircraft. I was kind of thinking of a Nazi analogue to the AC-47 gunship though. It would appear at first sight that the Ju-52 would be able to fit that role perfectly, assuming that the Luftwaffe decides to adopt a close-support plane for counterinsurgency warfare against guerrillas that lacked adequate anti-air capabilities. I mean, think about it. Like the AC-47, the Ju-52 gunship can deliver ad hoc "artillery support" for Brandenburgers and other special operations groups on search and destroy missions deep behind enemy lines.

The JU-52 was at best, adequate in its role and would need to be replaced. The Condor, although a lovely looking plane was horribly fragile, as already has been mentioned, some of them broke up in flight/landing. I like the idea of a Mitchel type aircraft, crammed with MGs.

So, you'd rather a HE-111 provide the airframe for a German fixed-wing gunship over the Ju-52?
 

CalBear

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the Germans had this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_81_machine_gun

and they could have used the principle for heavier calibers also.
The MG81Z is not completely a minigun, but close enough.

The 81Z has a firing rate of approx 3000-3200 rpm

and edit: after reading some about this gun, i found that the germans had these guns mounted in pods for aircraft use (3 guns per pod) and in some case a ju88 would be carrying like 6 pods which would produce a cumulative gun rate of almost 60.000 RPM (according to Jane's Infantry Weapons). Think that pretty much makes such a plane a gunship, doesn't it?

Actually the MG81Z is a twin mount, not a single weapon.
 

Deleted member 1487

Considering there were ~15,000 Ju88 made, its most likely, but the Do217 made use of the Mg81, so its an option, but the craft is pretty valuable in other roles.
 
No i'd see them using the JU-88, they used it for damn near everything else.


Considering there were ~15,000 Ju88 made, its most likely, but the Do217 made use of the Mg81, so its an option, but the craft is pretty valuable in other roles.

Just because the Ju-88 is used for almost everything and is a better bomber, it would be more logical for the Germans to use the He-111 instead. As a bomber the He-111 is obsolete by 1942/1943, while large numbers are built of them, so converting a 50ish for a different purpose could be possible.

However I am contradicting myself here, considering the He-111 is a 'converted' people carrier too. :D
 
I would say that if there was to be a starting point for a Ju-52 gunship, then the Spainish Civil War would be a good starting point, with several Ju-52 bombers being converted into ad-hock for use against enemy Infantry.

Then deveoping on from this point?
 
I would say that if there was to be a starting point for a Ju-52 gunship, then the Spainish Civil War would be a good starting point, with several Ju-52 bombers being converted into ad-hock for use against enemy Infantry.

Then deveoping on from this point?

Yeah... That would kind of work. The only problem was that they would probably be vulnerable to fighters and the World War that followed wasn't exactly a friendly environment for a slow-moving airplane crammed to the brim with weapons and ammunition. Having said that, the gunship would probably be more accurate than the heavy bomber. It's just that they were vulnerable to just about everything that could be thrown at it. It would be possible for the gunship to turn it's weapons on any incoming fighter or anti-air emplacement, but the fact that it's slow moving makes it an easy target.
 
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