Joseph Kennedy Jr. doesn’t die in WW2

I am going to cynical myself. There is no guarantee for any child born, that he will make it to adulthood, Darwin is more than just genes.



Point? I mean strictly on the topic. What is the connection between Joe and John aside from Nurture vs. Nature?



And again what has this to do with the central topic? I could drag Mary Todd Lincoln and Honest Abe and discuss their marital difficulties and it would lack the same relevance to the difference between Joe and John as leaders.



???



???



I think I see your thesis; now. YMMV and it should, because I reject it.

I argue that it is a combination of circumstance, opportunity and learned experience that will shape a great and good man from the average run of the mill political leader hack. I cannot see Lincoln (which I brought for this very purpose.) or FDR becoming the great men they did without the independent humanizing experiences that they endured and learned when Lincoln saw his fellow men enslaved, or when FDR was struck down by polio. Or when Kennedy had to save his crew through no fault of his own, because his NAVY taught him that an officer looks after his men FIRST.

There is just too much data that shows great good men never stop learning through the combination of curiosity, empathy and will to accept the truth rather than delude themselves. I think John had that in HIM and that was something HE put there.

I call it "internalization".

McP.

I'm afraid I'm too tired to explain myself further, I have had the ideas for a while though so know what I'm talking about. You'll have to do my with original explanations as I have excuse myself.
 
I'm afraid I'm too tired to explain myself further, I have had the ideas for a while though so know what I'm talking about. You'll have to do my with original explanations as I have excuse myself.

Okay, just so you know, I think the thesis might need some more work and development. (YMMV.) See my previous queries about how you seek to connect it up with the topic and where I think the thesis does not actually meet the congruence.
 
The Senate race was pretty close: 51.34-48.35. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_United_States_Senate_election_in_Massachusetts It's not inconceivable Lodge would defeat Joe, Jr. had the latter, for example, done worse than JFK did in his one public (radio) debate with Lodge.

And of course if Joe, Jr. had been elected in 1952, he would not have has JFK's health excuse for avoiding the McCarthy censure vote.
Correct I feel he would of voted no to censure McCarthy due to family ties and I think he would admired him.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Just as the title suggests, I pose the question of how would the United States and the Kennedy family as a whole differ from OTL if the eldest Kennedy brother, Joe Jr., was not killed in action during WW2. Prior to his death, he was the one being groomed for the Presidency, not Jack, so I would imagine it would have some profound effects on the trajectory of the family’s political destiny.

To reiterate, how would Joe Kennedy’s survival in WW2 effect the Kennedy family, and/or the nation as a whole?

Have to think about your questions some more, but here's an interesting read on both men (and their father) in this piece by Cari Beauchamp (who wrote a biography of Joe Sr.) in Vanity Fair. Joe Jr. does seem to have been a pretty solid individual, who dealt successfully with the stress of being the chosen one. First born sons get their share of parental attention, good and bad; seems like Joe Jr. navigated those rocks and shoals fairly well. Undeniably a brave man, even fatalistic.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/12/kennedy-200412

This anecdote about the two Kennedy brothers circumventing the rules about getting visas for refugees while in Europe in the fall of 1939 is illuminating:

Attempting to help Europe's primarily Jewish refugees jump the various hurdles that stood in the way of securing travel visas to America, (attorney Fanny) Holtzmann was taken aback one day when she entered the London embassy's visa department to find both Joe junior and Jack “helping a crowd of bewildered East European refugees fill out applications.” When she asked Jack what he was doing there, he responded, “What else can a fellow do, Miss Holtzmann?” Later, at the Warsaw embassy, she met them again, and realized the two young men had been up all night, working to process applications during the regular staff's off-hours.

Joe Jr. was cum laude from Harvard, was accepted to the law school, and appears to have mastered the intricacies of serving as a command pilot in multi-engined aircraft in combat during the Second World War; if he had survived, he presumably could have been successful in politics. Plenty of potential off-ramps between coming home in 1944-45 and the presidency, but it's certainly not an impossible path.



Joseph_P._Kennedy_Jr.
 
Okay, just so you know, I think the thesis might need some more work and development. (YMMV.) See my previous queries about how you seek to connect it up with the topic and where I think the thesis does not actually meet the congruence.

The death of JFK an RFK undercut and redefined the direction of the Kennedy dynasty because their children were only newborns and therefore the children did not have that influence of their father who is/was president of the United States, Ted was only a Senator which is nothing in comparison. This does contradict my argument of Robert marrying someone else in the respect that he would have had a lot of influence over his children with respect to his wife.

Just to inform you I did my dissertation on Leadership but it basically became a dissertation on psychology but from an individual psychological perspective through the lens of academic Leadership.

The argument about Robert Kennedy and Norma Jean Baker marrying is separate but based on a number of elements of what defines and creates charisma and instils leadership qualities into a person. In my eyes it covers:
  • Academia in Leadership
  • Academia in Genes (biology)
  • Academia in Psychology
  • Life experiences of the person involved
It must be said Norma Jean could not have children and if she did, it would take quite a number of attempts. It also has to be said she probably would not be able to have 11 children.

However, let’s just say they do have children.

Elite Sportsmen and women are classed as having good genes. Now whereas certain sportsmen and women are at the pinnacle of sports, the Kennedy’s seem to be the pinnacle of the political mind that needs extracting, unpackaged, influencing, nurturing, teaching, moulding like sportspeople are. The only evidence of this is seen in the amount of Kennedy’s that go into politics and just make a reasonable success of it like getting into the House of Representatives. The genes are ultimately there to be extracted and developed but it requires a certain individual to recognise and do that, otherwise, the qualities that can be made out of them will just not be developed.

Now Charisma is informed by genes and facial features forms apart of it. However, Charisma is also informed by one's own psychology of how one talks, behaves and thinks. Any one individual will have different genetic traits and depending on who they are brought up by it will unravel differently because the human growing up will adopt a lot of the behaviours, values, ideas and similar consciousness as to whoever is looking after them.

Intelligence again is connected to Leadership of oneself which is informed by our psychological foundation but the seeds of intelligence are found in genes. Intelligence will not grow and develop if it is not encouraged or moulded. Einstein is good here:



“Logic will get you from A to B. (But) Imagination will take you everywhere.” —Albert Einstein.


thumbnail_IMG_1101.jpg


Now whilst you say you don’t understand my reasoning for Robert and Norma Jean getting married it’s simple to me. She is one of the most everlasting personalities on earth because of her leadership style and charisma. In my eyes shes simply a genius but sadly in most men’s eyes, she is just a sex object. Her experiences in being brought up in foster homes and mental health institutes would obviously form a large part in how she would bring up her own children which would have been interesting.

In conclusion, the only difference between Norma Jean and Ethel Skakel is that one had a lot of children whereas the other was one of the most charismatic women on earth and would have become a woman of unrivalled persona and power to all other First Ladies of the United States.

What goes around comes around:

95a3768a515771dbc19bc4a1edb9c7a3.jpg
 
Last edited:
[snip]

Just inform you I did my dissertation on Leadership but it basically became a dissertation on psychology but from an individual psychological perspective through the lens of academic Leadership.

The argument about Robert Kennedy and Norma Jean Baker marrying is separate but based on a number of elements of what defines and creates charisma and instils leadership qualities into a person. In my eyes it covers:
  • Academia in Leadership
  • Academia in Genes (biology)
  • Academia in Psychology
  • Life experiences of the person involved
It must be said Norma Jean could not have children and if she did, it would take quite a number of attempts. It also has to be said she probably would not be able to have 11 children.

However, let’s just say they do have children.

Elite Sportsmen and women are classed as having good genes. Now whereas certain sportsmen and women are at the pinnacle of sports, the Kennedy’s seem to be the pinnacle of the political mind that needs extracting, unpackaged, influencing, nurturing, teaching, moulding like sportspeople are. The only evidence of this is seen in the amount of Kennedy’s that go into politics and just make a reasonable success of it like getting into the House of Representatives. The genes are ultimately there to be extracted and developed but it requires a certain individual to recognise and do that, otherwise, the qualities that can be made out of them will just not be developed.

Now Charisma is informed by genes and facial features forms apart of it. However, Charisma is also informed by one's own psychology of how one talks, behaves and thinks. Any one individual will have different genetic traits and depending on who they are brought up by it will unravel differently because the human growing up will adopt a lot of the behaviours, values, ideas and similar consciousness as to whoever is looking after them.

Intelligence again is connected to Leadership of oneself which is informed by our psychological foundation but the seeds of intelligence are found in genes. Intelligence will grow and develop if it is not encouraged or moulded. Einstein is good here:



“Logic will get you from A to B. (But) Imagination will take you everywhere.” —Albert Einstein.




Now whilst you say you don’t understand my reasoning for Robert and Norma Jean getting married it’s simple to me. She is one of the most everlasting personalities on earth because of her leadership style and charisma. In my eyes shes simply a genius but sadly in most men’s eyes, she is just a sex object. Her experiences in being brought up in foster homes and mental health institutes would obviously form a large part in how she would bring up her own children which would have been interesting.

In conclusion, the only difference between Norma Jean and Ethel Skakel is that one had a lot of children whereas the other was one of the most charismatic women on earth and would have become a woman of unrivalled persona and power to all other First Ladies of the United States.

What goes around comes around:


You might have earned a doctorate, with a dissertation on formative human psychology with childhood cue imprimatur, but that is not how adult human leadership is learned or how it works at all.

And it is specific adults and their adult experiences which are at issue here. Specifically Joe and John.

Whether or not the Kennedy children common descended had the parental imprimatur I reject, because I have Teddy Kennedy as the negation to your primary thesis.

He failed by every leadership metric I know.

One of the things that forms human male adult leadership is a structured group competitive environment. Yeah, I know it is sports, but consider our actual evolution? We are pack hunter ambush predators when we tear away the veneer of civilization. We generally have learned the hard way that young human males operate best by teams of 5, 10, 5, 4, 3 and so up in hierarchy with one older and more experienced adult to guide the exercise via his learned life experience.

It is such a common model we don't even notice it or mention it when we see it in business, politics or WAR. We just assume it is there like air. But here's the thing, if you don't have that young adult human team experience, you are not going to develop leadership skills. The ages are about 12-25 generally when it is learned.

I can see from Joe's bio that he went into flying. I can see from John's bio, he went into PT boats. That is fundamental to how they thought. A pilot controls a plane by direct mechanical input. A naval officer controls men and directs them and that is how he controls a ship.

That's basic. I would not be surprised if Joe was a lousy team builder and leader and a failure as a consensus generator and persuader. John on the other hand? Bet that guy was a motivator for his team even if he was physically not good at the game.
 
I think this hinges on if Joe Sr. can realize he picked the wrong son to groom and changes horses.

If he can't Joe Jr. will continue being prepared to become President. Can he win, and if he does what would the administration be like?
If he loses how does Joe Sr. react to having backed a losing horse for years/decades?
 
You might have earned a doctorate, with a dissertation on formative human psychology with childhood cue imprimatur, but that is not how adult human leadership is learned or how it works at all.

And it is specific adults and their adult experiences which are at issue here. Specifically Joe and John.

Whether or not the Kennedy children common descended had the parental imprimatur I reject, because I have Teddy Kennedy as the negation to your primary thesis.

He failed by every leadership metric I know.

One of the things that forms human male adult leadership is a structured group competitive environment. Yeah, I know it is sports, but consider our actual evolution? We are pack hunter ambush predators when we tear away the veneer of civilization. We generally have learned the hard way that young human males operate best by teams of 5, 10, 5, 4, 3 and so up in hierarchy with one older and more experienced adult to guide the exercise via his learned life experience.

It is such a common model we don't even notice it or mention it when we see it in business, politics or WAR. We just assume it is there like air. But here's the thing, if you don't have that young adult human team experience, you are not going to develop leadership skills. The ages are about 12-25 generally when it is learned.

I can see from Joe's bio that he went into flying. I can see from John's bio, he went into PT boats. That is fundamental to how they thought. A pilot controls a plane by direct mechanical input. A naval officer controls men and directs them and that is how he controls a ship.

That's basic. I would not be surprised if Joe was a lousy team builder and leader and a failure as a consensus generator and persuader. John on the other hand? Bet that guy was a motivator for his team even if he was physically not good at the game.

You can put across all the academic points as much as you want because that is what academia is for. Constant arguing to which I want to stay clear of. You will not change my mind and I'm the best example of a person who created their own intelligence without any 'institutional' help and accomplished it through independent self-learning through the age of 7. I more or less taught myself everything, I could just about read and write at the age of 16. Look at me now people think I'm intelligent.x'D
 
Last edited:
You can put across all the academic points as much as you want because that is why academia is for. Constant arguing to which I want to stay clear of. You will not change my mind and I'm the best example of a person who created their own intelligence without any 'institutional' help and accomplished it through independent self-learning through the age of 7. I more or less taught myself everything, I could just about read and write at the age of 16. Look at me now people think I'm intelligent.x'D

???. May I ask what has this statement (^^^) to do with the topic? "Joseph Kennedy Jr. doesn’t die in WW2"
 
I think this hinges on if Joe Sr. can realize he picked the wrong son to groom and changes horses.

If he can't Joe Jr. will continue being prepared to become President. Can he win, and if he does what would the administration be like?
If he loses how does Joe Sr. react to having backed a losing horse for years/decades?

I think Joe Sr. would try again with John or Robert. As for Joe's administration, I think we would see a lot of "nativism" and possibly a strain of "Wilsonian democrat" type politics and an utter disaster result from it. It is just a hunch, I have. I'm open to data to support or refute that hunch.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
I can see from Joe's bio that he went into flying. I can see from John's bio, he went into PT boats. That is fundamental to how they thought. A pilot controls a plane by direct mechanical input. A naval officer controls men and directs them and that is how he controls a ship.

That's basic. I would not be surprised if Joe was a lousy team builder and leader and a failure as a consensus generator and persuader. John on the other hand? Bet that guy was a motivator for his team even if he was physically not good at the game.

Minor points:

a) Crew in a PB4Y was - generally - 10, including four officers (pilot, co pilot, navigator, bombardier) and six enlisted. Joe Jr. volunteered for flight training, and would have worked his way up from copilot to command pilot, flying on active operations over the Gulf and in the Caribbean and then in combat in the eastern Atlantic from the UK. Joe Jr. was not a fighter pilot, obviously, and successfully leading a 10-man air crew in combat is pretty much the definition of team leadership and small unit leadership.

b) Crew of a PT boat was - generally - 15-18, including three officers and 12-15 enlisted. JFK volunteered for active service, and - give his prewar health issues - could have served in a low risk position. Instead, he volunteered for PT boats, and pushed to get into action in the South Pacific.

All in all, I don't think you can make a judgement one way or the other based on their respective war records.
 
Minor points:

a) Crew in a PB4Y was - generally - 10, including four officers (pilot, co pilot, navigator, bombardier) and six enlisted. Joe Jr. volunteered for flight training, and would have worked his way up from copilot to command pilot, flying on active operations over the Gulf and in the Caribbean and then in combat in the eastern Atlantic from the UK. Joe Jr. was not a fighter pilot, obviously, and successfully leading a 10-man air crew in combat is pretty much the definition of team leadership and small unit leadership.

b) Crew of a PT boat was - generally - 15-18, including three officers and 12-15 enlisted. JFK volunteered for active service, and - give his prewar health issues - could have served in a low risk position. Instead, he volunteered for PT boats, and pushed to get into action in the South Pacific.

All in all, I don't think you can make a judgement one way or the other based on their respective war records.

Some differences I think. The pilot, Joe, is not actually making team decisions based on how he has men handling the aircraft. HE is handling the aircraft and that is not exactly executive decision making over time. At best he is asking the men to cover for each other as they have been rote trained at their assigned stations, since he is not directing the group effort. He can't. It's not his job, since he's usually stuck flying the plane. John Kennedy on the PT boat has a more hands on mobile person to person interactive environment. It is a boat. He has more leeway in the leadership situation since he can move around and see for himself how his crew is doing. I guess what I mean is that the team Joe has is 18 hours in the air without the time to swap around and interact too much at any reduced tempo. The PT boat, except for those few minutes of frantic terror of direct combat is more of a situation where men really get to live together and function together on that boat. The leader of that group really gets a feel for his men and it is more a band of brothers kind of thing instead of a plug and play technician mans a part of the machine thing.

Maybe Joe could have developed some rapport with his crews on the ground, but in the air situation? Uh. Uh. That gets you killed in a WW II crew served aircraft. Serve the machine or die. Hollyweird actually gets that wrong.

McP.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Some differences I think. The pilot, Joe, is not actually making team decisions based on how he has men handling the aircraft. HE is handling the aircraft and that is not exactly executive decision making over time. At best he is asking the men to cover for each other as they have been rote trained at their assigned stations, since he is not directing the group effort. He can't. It's not his job, since he's usually stuck flying the plane. John Kennedy on the PT boat has a more hands on mobile person to person interactive environment. It is a boat. He has more leeway in the leadership situation since he can move around and see for himself how his crew is doing. I guess what I mean is that the team Joe has is 18 hours in the air without the time to swap around and interact too much at any reduced tempo. The PT boat, except for those few minutes of frantic terror of direct combat is more of a situation where men really get to live together and function together on that boat. The leader of that group really gets a feel for his men and it is more a band of brothers kind of thing instead of a plug and play technician mans a part of the machine thing.

Maybe Joe could have developed some rapport with his crews on the ground, but in the air situation? Uh. Uh. That gets you killed in a WW II crew served aircraft. Serve the machine or die. Hollyweird actually gets that wrong.

McP.

Understand your point, but absent reading an in-depth biography of Joe, I don't think there's enough evidence to make a judgment. He was obviously smart, well-educated, brave, technically skilled, and had been raised with incredibly high expectations, and so would have had all of John's advantages and been in better health, and - possibly - a couple more years experience in public life. Seems likely he could have made it to the WH.

Having said that, the number of potential off-ramps are huge ...
 
But if he were to do that he would wreck his chances of ever being on a national Democratic ticket. The vote for censure in OTL was 67-22 with every Democrat present (JFK of course was not) voting for censure. https://books.google.com/books?id=WmkjhyFDDmkC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104
would be interesting how he would play it off then. Since I feel everything else would been OTL. Maybe someone would of thought of something big enough to get him out of town
 
Elvis marrying Kick?No way-wasn't she about seventeen years older than him? I've often wondered-what if old Joe hadn't had that stroke?
 
My take is if the mission that Joe Jr. died on was successful and he lived he would have been awarded the Medal of Honor for it.
He then could have run as either for the Congressional seat that JFK did or there was the option to run for Lt. Governor and with Joe Sr. money that would have taken a close race that the Democrats loss and turned it to a win.
If Joe Jr. takes the Lt. Governor route that would have given him statewide recognition and allowed him to run for the Senate against the Republican incumbent Leverett in 1948 an overwhelming Democratic year.
I sincerely doubt that he would have all that conservative as some would make him out to be, but he would most likely be an Anti-Communist, Pro Civil Rights garden variety Northeastern moderate liberal.
 
My take is if the mission that Joe Jr. died on was successful and he lived he would have been awarded the Medal of Honor for it. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aphrodite

Joe Jrs role in the mission was relatively small. He flew as a take off pilot, one of a two man team who took got the aircraft off the ground and on course. After radio control was established the pair bailed out. In Joes case the explosive charge prematurely detonated shortly after take off. Remote control had not been established. Not sure what medal bailing out of a primitive cruise missile rates, but Joe would have earned it. The guys who would have flown the control planes would have been at a higher level of medal earning. They had to stay within a few dozen kilometers of the controlled plane & follow it within sight of the target point. Enemy interceptors & high powered FLAK made for interesting missions. Maybe Joe Jr would have flown a control plane later, tho the the poor results of the project might have still canceled it after a few more missions. None of the missions actually flown, including test missions could be considered successful & the premature explosion that Kill Joe Kennedy Jr pretty much killed the Army project. Some fourteen experimental missions were flown when the project was abandoned.
 
What is so astonishing about the Kennedy family is that they have so much political talent. To put it bluntly Joseph senior was an idiot. As a father he should have natured all his sons and daughters equally and then picked the best for President.

JFK could have become President with Joesph Jr. living but it required Joesph Sr. to recognise that JFK was more talented than Joesph Jr.

However he brought up his children as if it was inevitable that the first born and then the second born was going to become president. That is putting a lot of faith and pressure into one person. Poor Joe Jr. and JFK.

If he had any common sense, was caring and empathetic and did not bring up his children through a strict regime the success of his children would have been a lot better.

Though it must be said by this point, if he is acting like this his removal from ambassadorship to the United Kingdom will not happen and Rosemary Kennedy will not have a lobotomy.

Joesph Sr. - Ambassador to the UK, (1938-1945) US attorney general (1945-1952)

Joesph Jr. - House of Representativeness, US Senator, treasury secretary

Jack Fitzgerald Kennedy - President of the United States -(1961-1968)

Robert - US Attorney General, US Defence secretary, President of the United States (post 1968)

Teddy Kennedy - US Senator

Patricia Kennedy - becomes film producer (was not allowed to because of sexism) despite the sexism sets up her own company and works in Europe more than the US.

Jean Kennedy - becomes a Hollywood actress

Kathleen Kennedy- Governor of Massachusetts but marries Elvis Presley in early 1950s. (Nicknamed "Kick" because of her "irrepressible nature.")

Rosemary Kennedy - (“During her birth, the doctor was not immediately available and the nurse ordered Rose Kennedy to keep her legs closed, forcing the baby's head to stay in the birth canal for two hours. The action resulted in a harmful loss of oxygen.”)

There is need for a doctor, keeping her legs closed for two hours is frankly madness. I am sure that was a very long two hours. The obvious thing is to get the baby out not keep it in. Incompetent and idiotic nurse.

Goes to art school and then fashion school in Paris and Rome. Becomes an artist, fashion designer and sculpturist. Marries a famous clothes, jewellery or artist designer.

Eunice Kennedy - married to Sargent Shriver US (Democratic) Vice President in a Robert Kennedy administration.

Everything else remains the same: gets her degree in sociology, works in the Special War Problems Division of the US state department and US justice department dealing with juvenile delinquency.



That may be the most fawning, obsequious Kennedy-wank I've ever seen to the point that it made several teeth ache...
 
Top