Joseph Kennedy Jr. doesn’t die in WW2

Just as the title suggests, I pose the question of how would the United States and the Kennedy family as a whole differ from OTL if the eldest Kennedy brother, Joe Jr., was not killed in action during WW2. Prior to his death, he was the one being groomed for the Presidency, not Jack, so I would imagine it would have some profound effects on the trajectory of the family’s political destiny.

To reiterate, how would Joe Kennedy’s survival in WW2 effect the Kennedy family, and/or the nation as a whole?
 
William G. Carleton (1901-1982), a University of Florida historian and political scientist (and occasional speechwriter for Joseph Kennedy, Sr.) expressed some doubt that Joe, Jr. would ever have become president: "If Joe, Jr. had lived, John would not have gone into politics at all. This is not to say that Joe, Jr. would have 'made the grade' in high politics, as believers in the Kennedy magic now assume. Joe, Jr. was an extrovert; he was obviously the politcal 'type'. John's mind was more penetrating and dispassionate, and he did not fit the stereotype of the politician, particularly the Irish politician. What endeared John to the status-seeking minorities was that he appeared more the scion of an old aristocratic Yankee family than the authentic scions themselves. Had Joe, Jr. lived, the Kennedy family in all probability would never have had a President at all. (In part, this evaluaton of Joe, Jr. and John is derived from personal observation. I recall vividly an evening, April 4, 1941, when I was a guest at the Kennedy home in Palm Beach. Following dinner, the entire family, including the younger children, assembled in the drawing-room for a discussion of public affairs...Mr. Kennedy, John, and I were the chief participants, although Mrs. Kennedy and Joe, Jr. often broke in with comments. It was clear to me that John had a far better historical and political mind than his father or his elder brother; indeed, that John's capacity for seeing current events in historical perspective and projecting historical trends into the future was unusual...)"

https://books.google.com/books?id=nrFlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA203

The fact that Jack was more bookish (no doubt illness gave him more time to read) and Joe, Jr. more extroverted and closer to the stereotype of the Irish politician may explain why Jack appealed more than Joe, Jr. ever could to intellectuals like Carleton, but it hardly proves that Joe would have been less attractive to the electorate as a whole. I think one reason for Carleton's admiration for Jack is that Jack, unlike Joe, Jr., was edging away from his father's isolationism at an early stage. (Remember that Joe, Jr. had voted for Jim Farley and against FDR's third term at the 1940 Democratic convention--one of a handful of delegates to do so. In a party where FDR's memory was widely revered--even among some people who had reservations about him while he lived--that could be a problem for Joe, Jr's later political career.) Yet Joe, Jr.too might eventually have disassociated himself from some of his father's more controversial positions had he lived. Joe, Jr. might have been tempted, for example, if he were elected to the Senate, to oppose the censure of Joe McCarthy (a hero both to his father and to many of his Boston Irish constituents) but he would have to realize that this would wreck his chance of getting the Democratic presidential nomination. (Jack of course managed to avoid the vote due to back surgery, an option which presumably would not be available to Joe...) If Robert F. Kennedy could morph from a McCarthy aide to a liberal Senator from New York, one should not assume Joe, Jr. woud always retain his America-First politics of the early 1940's.

Of course, even if one assumes that Joe, Jr. would be ideologically acceptable to Democrats in 1960, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would have won the presidency. JFK once remarked that Joe, unlike him, would have succeeded in becoming Stevenson's running mate in 1956. But then, JFK added, Ike-Nixon would have overwhelmingly defeated Stevenson-Kennedy--"And today Joe's political career would be in shambles..." http://books.google.com/books?id=nsOlkJ7yVhMC&pg=PA182 Indeed, JFK's path to the presidency was based on so many contingencies (some of them seemingly insignificant) that it is extremely risky to assume that a different Kennedy (whether a surviving Joe, Jr. or any of the other brothers) would have been elected if JFK hadn't run.
 
Joe Jr died at age 29, 6 years before he could legally run for president and 16 years before his brother became president. He could've changed a lot in that time. Really, anyone in their forties, how much are you like you were in your twenties?
 
Joe Jr died at age 29, 6 years before he could legally run for president and 16 years before his brother became president. He could've changed a lot in that time. Really, anyone in their forties, how much are you like you were in your twenties?

I am 40 and my base princaples are the same as my 20's as they are now. Thing is everything I've heard about Joe Jr is he was not as smart as his younger brothers. I could see him being more stuck in his ways and more beholden to his father then the other brothers.
 
. . . JFK's path to the presidency was based on so many contingencies . . .
That’s kind of the way I feel.

Take the example of a baseball player who makes a key hit in Game 7 of the World Series. If you rewind to the beginning of the season with a different player on the same team and perhaps even a “better” player in many regards, history is unlikely to repeat itself.
 
That’s kind of the way I feel.

Take the example of a baseball player who makes a key hit in Game 7 of the World Series. If you rewind to the beginning of the season with a different player on the same team and perhaps even a “better” player in many regards, history is unlikely to repeat itself.
Like a very good chance that Joe Jr takes the Vp slot in 56
 
to me, that’s still a long travel distance out on the tail of the Bell curve
Well the Mass Senate seat should not be a problem for him and him being a "war hero" would put him on the short list but unlike his younger brother who was unavailable for that spot do to surgery
 
What is so astonishing about the Kennedy family is that they have so much political talent. To put it bluntly Joseph senior was an idiot. As a father he should have natured all his sons and daughters equally and then picked the best for President.

JFK could have become President with Joesph Jr. living but it required Joesph Sr. to recognise that JFK was more talented than Joesph Jr.

However he brought up his children as if it was inevitable that the first born and then the second born was going to become president. That is putting a lot of faith and pressure into one person. Poor Joe Jr. and JFK.

If he had any common sense, was caring and empathetic and did not bring up his children through a strict regime the success of his children would have been a lot better.

Though it must be said by this point, if he is acting like this his removal from ambassadorship to the United Kingdom will not happen and Rosemary Kennedy will not have a lobotomy.

Joesph Sr. - Ambassador to the UK, (1938-1945) US attorney general (1945-1952)

Joesph Jr. - House of Representativeness, US Senator, treasury secretary

Jack Fitzgerald Kennedy - President of the United States -(1961-1968)

Robert - US Attorney General, US Defence secretary, President of the United States (post 1968)

Teddy Kennedy - US Senator

Patricia Kennedy - becomes film producer (was not allowed to because of sexism) despite the sexism sets up her own company and works in Europe more than the US.

Jean Kennedy - becomes a Hollywood actress

Kathleen Kennedy- Governor of Massachusetts but marries Elvis Presley in early 1950s. (Nicknamed "Kick" because of her "irrepressible nature.")

Rosemary Kennedy - (“During her birth, the doctor was not immediately available and the nurse ordered Rose Kennedy to keep her legs closed, forcing the baby's head to stay in the birth canal for two hours. The action resulted in a harmful loss of oxygen.”)

There is need for a doctor, keeping her legs closed for two hours is frankly madness. I am sure that was a very long two hours. The obvious thing is to get the baby out not keep it in. Incompetent and idiotic nurse.

Goes to art school and then fashion school in Paris and Rome. Becomes an artist, fashion designer and sculpturist. Marries a famous clothes, jewellery or artist designer.

Eunice Kennedy - married to Sargent Shriver US (Democratic) Vice President in a Robert Kennedy administration.

Everything else remains the same: gets her degree in sociology, works in the Special War Problems Division of the US state department and US justice department dealing with juvenile delinquency.
 
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My opinion, YMMV, (and it should)… we were very lucky to get John and not Joe. It comes down to temperament, wisdom and character. PT-109 shows that John had it. That mission for which Joe volunteered, in which his plane blew up, came after John's unwanted and unasked for, but coerced out of him heroism. It shows me that Joe might have been trying to show "Papa" that he, too, had the right stuff. As it turns out, circumstance (accidental and probably a mechanical fail) prevented Joe's success. Nevertheless the "implicit reason" for why Joe Jr. might have tried such a kamikaze stunt, makes me suspect the man would have made similar poor life or death decisions based on entirely wrong choice criteria.
 
What is so astonishing about the Kennedy family is that they have so much political talent. To put it bluntly Joseph senior was an idiot. As a father he should have natured all his sons and daughters equally and then picked the best for President.



Rosemary Kennedy - (“During her birth, the doctor was not immediately available and the nurse ordered Rose Kennedy to keep her legs closed, forcing the baby's head to stay in the birth canal for two hours. The action resulted in a harmful loss of oxygen.”)

There is need for a doctor, keeping her legs closed for two hours is frankly madness. I am sure that was a very long two hours. The obvious thing is to get the baby out not keep it in.

Goes to art school and then fashion school in Paris and Rome. Becomes an artist, fashion designer and sculpturist. Marries a famous clothes, jewellery or artist designer.

Eunice Kennedy - married to Sargent Shriver US (Democratic) Vice President in a Robert Kennedy administration.

Everything else remains the same: get her degree in sociology, works in the Special War Problems Division of the US state department and US justice department dealing with juvenile delinquency.
Did you just butterfly away the Special Olympics or least the Kennedy/ Shriver connection with it?
 
Did you just butterfly away the Special Olympics or least the Kennedy/ Shriver connection with it?

Well if she is married to the Vice President she’d have initiatives to drive whilst he is in office. No reason why she cannot think up the initiative. She appears to be the only Kennedy girl who had a self driving initiative anyway.
 
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Well if she is married to the Vice President she’d have initiatives to drive whilst he is in office. No reason why cannot think up the initiative. She appears to be the only Kennedy girl who had a self driving initiative anyway.
yeah but the main reason she got involved with it was due to Rose so if Rose is more healthy that is a subject that may not matter as much
 
My opinion, YMMV, (and it should)… we were very lucky to get John and not Joe. It comes down to temperament, wisdom and character. PT-109 shows that John had it. That mission for which Joe volunteered, in which his plane blew up, came after John's unwanted and unasked for, but coerced out of him heroism. It shows me that Joe might have been trying to show "Papa" that he, too, had the right stuff. As it turns out, circumstance (accidental and probably a mechanical fail) prevented Joe's success. Nevertheless the "implicit reason" for why Joe Jr. might have tried such a kamikaze stunt, makes me suspect the man would have made similar poor life or death decisions based on entirely wrong choice criteria.

Well that is certainly down to how he was brought up. Still I think he would not have become president but that does not mean he could have had successful political or military career if he was brought up in a different way as not be so reckless in the face of absolute death.

But being in WW2 and the Korean War would have given him certain edge in the family, public domain and the media. He won the Flying Cross, Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal due to his death but the nevertheless may well have been awarded some of those post-war.

So if he makes the correct decisions he’ll come home a war hero regardless.
 
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yeah but the main reason she got involved with it was due to Rose so if Rose is more healthy that is a subject that may not matter as much

I thought about that and it is a legitimate point. But you have say with all this progressive change that their father should have instilled into them like being a film producer, actress or artist then anything is possible. She seemed to take an academic route in life which must have a fundamental reason for her doing that. I cannot say with confidence that it was her father encouraging her to become a sociologist.
 
Well the Mass Senate seat should not be a problem for him and him being a "war hero" would put him on the short list but unlike his younger brother who was unavailable for that spot do to surgery

The Senate race was pretty close: 51.34-48.35. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952_United_States_Senate_election_in_Massachusetts It's not inconceivable Lodge would defeat Joe, Jr. had the latter, for example, done worse than JFK did in his one public (radio) debate with Lodge.

And of course if Joe, Jr. had been elected in 1952, he would not have has JFK's health excuse for avoiding the McCarthy censure vote.
 
Just as the title suggests, I pose the question of how would the United States and the Kennedy family as a whole differ from OTL if the eldest Kennedy brother, Joe Jr., was not killed in action during WW2. Prior to his death, he was the one being groomed for the Presidency, not Jack, so I would imagine it would have some profound effects on the trajectory of the family’s political destiny.

To reiterate, how would Joe Kennedy’s survival in WW2 effect the Kennedy family, and/or the nation as a whole?
What if he inheritated his mothers genes in terms of longevity ?
 
I got to be critical and cynical now.

JFK’s marriage to Jacqueline Bouvier was fantastic as they both had good genes as can be seen in Caroline and John Jr. Therefore the same can be said of PBK. (Patrick Bouvier Kennedy)

One wonders why on earth you would cheat on a woman like that, because if they can have 7 children it will continue this political dynasty that will become an American cultural dynasty.
It is well known that Jacquline was going to divorce JFK after his presidency because of the all the extramarital affairs he had.

This is not so much with Robert Kennedy and Ethel Skakel Kennedy because despite having eleven children, none of them reached the altitude of John Jr. and Caroline. Don’t get me wrong they have been prominent within American society but nothing in comparison to John Jr alone. Some people may say he was the son of a President but I’d also say his charisma came through like his father’s and mother’s did.

Marrying Norma Jean Baker (Marilyn Monroe) would have been good because despite all the sexism against her she was very charismatic and extremely intelligent person than most people recognise her to be. Apparently she was attracted to those people with a lot of intelligence and that is why she married them. The only problem with this marriage is that she could not give birth but you would have an equal to Jacquline Bouvier.

The only other person I can think as equal to Jacquline, Norma and who married into a high profile statesman is Grace Kelly who married Rainier III, Prince of Monaco. (That marriage was unbalanced as well and she ended her acting career.)
 
I got to be critical and cynical now.

JFK’s marriage to Jacqueline Bouvier was fantastic as they both had good genes as can be seen in Caroline and John Jr. Therefore the same can be said of PBK. (Patrick Bouvier Kennedy)

I am going to cynical myself. There is no guarantee for any child born, that he will make it to adulthood, Darwin is more than just genes.

One wonders why on earth you would cheat on a woman like that, because if they can have 7 children it will continue this political dynasty that will become an American cultural dynasty.

Point? I mean strictly on the topic. What is the connection between Joe and John aside from Nurture vs. Nature?

It is well known that Jacquline was going to divorce JFK after his presidency because of the all the extramarital affairs he had.

And again what has this to do with the central topic? I could drag Mary Todd Lincoln and Honest Abe and discuss their marital difficulties and it would lack the same relevance to the difference between Joe and John as leaders.

This is not so much with Robert Kennedy and Ethel Skakel Kennedy because despite having eleven children, none of them reached the altitude of John Jr. and Caroline. Don’t get me wrong they have been prominent within American society but nothing in comparison to John Jr alone. Some people may say he was the son of a President but I’d also say his charisma came through like his father’s and mother’s did.

???

Marrying Norma Jean Baker (Marilyn Monroe) would have been good because despite all the sexism against her she was very charismatic and extremely intelligent person than most people recognise her to be. Apparently she was attracted to those people with a lot of intelligence and that is why she married them. The only problem with this marriage is that she could not give birth but you would have an equal to Jacquline Bouvier.

???

The only other person I can think as equal to Jacquline, Norma and who married into a high profile statesman is Grace Kelly who married Rainier III, Prince of Monaco. (That marriage was unbalanced as well and she ended her acting career.)

I think I see your thesis; now. YMMV and it should, because I reject it.

I argue that it is a combination of circumstance, opportunity and learned experience that will shape a great and good man from the average run of the mill political leader hack. I cannot see Lincoln (which I brought for this very purpose.) or FDR becoming the great men they did without the independent humanizing experiences that they endured and learned when Lincoln saw his fellow men enslaved, or when FDR was struck down by polio. Or when Kennedy had to save his crew through no fault of his own, because his NAVY taught him that an officer looks after his men FIRST.

There is just too much data that shows great good men never stop learning through the combination of curiosity, empathy and will to accept the truth rather than delude themselves. I think John had that in HIM and that was something HE put there.

I call it "internalization".

McP.
 
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