Joseph Franz, second son of Emperor Francis I of Austria survives

Joseph Franz, was the second son of Emperor Francis I of Austria and Maria Theresa of Sicily. He was born in 1799 and died in 1807.

Unlike his brother Ferdinand, he was a lively child and suffered no apparent problems.

What would've changed had instead of him dying in 1807, it had been his brother Ferdinand who had died? Joseph would now be heir to the Empire, who might be proposed for his bride? His brother's wife from otl, or someone else?

What might become of Franz Joseph, should he still be born here, without being the heir to the throne?

If Joseph as Emperor is a centrist, or as possible as it is to be a centrist whilst being Emperor, what might change in the Austrian Empire?
 
It's interesting you mention this, in my Napoleonic TL I had him survive. If most of his family at this time are any indication, he would be a conservative.
 
Unfortunately, due to his parents being double first cousins, Josef Franz is likely to not be an intellectual giant. His two brothers, Ferdinand and Franz Karl, were neither strong nor smart. I don't foresee a happy future for Josef Franz.

To give you an idea of what was thought of Franz Karl, here's what his mother-in-law (Karoline of Baden, queen of Bavaria) said of him:
He is a good fellow and wants to do well. He asks everyone for advice, but he’s really terrible…. He would bore me to death. Every now and then I would want to hit him.
 
Unfortunately, due to his parents being double first cousins, Josef Franz is likely to not be an intellectual giant. His two brothers, Ferdinand and Franz Karl, were neither strong nor smart. I don't foresee a happy future for Josef Franz.

To give you an idea of what was thought of Franz Karl, here's what his mother-in-law (Karoline of Baden, queen of Bavaria) said of him:
Aha the curse of the Habsburg strikes again...
 
So is he likely to remain simple then? Or s rare exception?

Not simple, just not necessarily brilliant either. Put it this way, if he were in high school today, he'd be neither a nerd/geek nor a jock. As the heir he'd probably be the kid nobody really likes (or has an opinion of) but everybody tolerates because of who his dad is (was kinda thinking on this while supervising study hall for a bunch of 14/15year olds earlier).
 
Not simple, just not necessarily brilliant either. Put it this way, if he were in high school today, he'd be neither a nerd/geek nor a jock. As the heir he'd probably be the kid nobody really likes (or has an opinion of) but everybody tolerates because of who his dad is (was kinda thinking on this while supervising study hall for a bunch of 14/15year olds earlier).
Lol interesting, this now has me wondering what the difference would be if Francis ii had a son by his first wife
 
Lol interesting, this now has me wondering what the difference would be if Francis ii had a son by his first wife

Considering how distantly he and the Württemberger princess were related to one another (no common ancestors in the last few generations, I think it might have to go back to Ferdinand I's daughter the duchess of Cleves to find one), I'd suspect it would go far better than a double first cousin match. You might want to ask @Neptune, he might know more about it, I think he might've started a TL on it at one point.
 
Considering how distantly he and the Württemberger princess were related to one another (no common ancestors in the last few generations, I think it might have to go back to Ferdinand I's daughter the duchess of Cleves to find one), I'd suspect it would go far better than a double first cousin match. You might want to ask @Neptune, he might know more about it, I think he might've started a TL on it at one point.
Oh interesting
 
Interesting why those choices?

Makes two of us who're wondering that. But I guess it depends on the whole focus of the Austrian empire at the time of the marriages. If the empire is focused on strengthening their hold on Italy, then the Savoyard match is the way to go - assuming that Maria Anna's sisters marry where they did OTL. If they're interested in Germany, Sophie's sisters' marriages of OTL are the way to go. Of course, it might not be as black and white as simply one of the other. There could be other ladies/matches considered.

For instance, a POD in 1807 might mean that even if Maria Luise is married to Napoléon, the duke of Modena still marries one of Franz's daughters as opposed to his niece. OTL what happened was that Francesco IV of Modena was betrothed to Maria Luise, but then life happened: Austria made peace with Napoléon, Franz II's wife died, Alexander rejected Nap's suit for the hand of a Russian grand duchess, Franz married the duke of Modena's sister, and Austria offered Luise to him. Now, if Luise were married off to Francesco (she'd be 16yo in 1807, so marriageable age), it would mean that if Austria were to offer an archduchess, the first lady available would be Maria Leopoldine (b.1797). She's a bit young for an 1810 wedding, only just having turned thirteen in January 1810... But the Habsburgs have married uncles to nieces (Modena being a case in point), so they might not see anything wrong with a thirteen year old bride. Alternatively, they might wed Luise to Nap and consign Leopoldine to marry Modena. She'd be 15 in 1812 (when Modena married OTL).

Still, considering Leopoldine's antics OTL in Brasil, it would make her a much stronger force to be reckoned with in Paris (in time) than what Luise ever was.
 
For instance, a POD in 1807 might mean that even if Maria Luise is married to Napoléon, the duke of Modena still marries one of Franz's daughters as opposed to his niece. OTL what happened was that Francesco IV of Modena was betrothed to Maria Luise, but then life happened: Austria made peace with Napoléon, Franz II's wife died, Alexander rejected Nap's suit for the hand of a Russian grand duchess, Franz married the duke of Modena's sister, and Austria offered Luise to him. Now, if Luise were married off to Francesco (she'd be 16yo in 1807, so marriageable age), it would mean that if Austria were to offer an archduchess, the first lady available would be Maria Leopoldine (b.1797). She's a bit young for an 1810 wedding, only just having turned thirteen in January 1810... But the Habsburgs have married uncles to nieces (Modena being a case in point), so they might not see anything wrong with a thirteen year old bride. Alternatively, they might wed Luise to Nap and consign Leopoldine to marry Modena. She'd be 15 in 1812 (when Modena married OTL).

Still, considering Leopoldine's antics OTL in Brasil, it would make her a much stronger force to be reckoned with in Paris (in time) than what Luise ever was.[/QUOTE]


God,without Dona Leopoldina you just gutted the Brazilian independence movement, at least the project of a unified Brazil. No Leopoldina,means almost surely no Brazilian monarchy and Brazil splited in at least 4 republics. Yes she was that important to Brazil.
 
God,without Dona Leopoldina you just gutted the Brazilian independence movement, at least the project of a unified Brazil. No Leopoldina,means almost surely no Brazilian monarchy and Brazil splited in at least 4 republics. Yes she was that important to Brazil.

My apologies, I didn't mean to do that to Brasil, I was simply saying that she would've made a far more staunch support for her son, *Napoléon II than what Marie Luise ever was for Reichstadt. Hell, were she to become empress of the French instead of Brasil, she'd probably be the type to rally and lead the troops in defense of Paris herself if her husband weren't around.
 
My apologies, I didn't mean to do that to Brasil, I was simply saying that she would've made a far more staunch support for her son, *Napoléon II than what Marie Luise ever was for Reichstadt. Hell, were she to become empress of the French instead of Brasil, she'd probably be the type to rally and lead the troops in defense of Paris herself if her husband weren't around.


No problem,I know you meant no harm to Brazil.Yeas I agree with you that she would do something like that,in fact in OTL,she did rally the navy and the army to defeat the Portuguese.She worked as an english translator to the first batch of navy officers and sailors,it was pretty hard to find English speakers at that time,and the instrutors were British.She also planed and arranged for veterans soldiers of the Napoleonic wars to immigrate to Brazil and create a core of experienced soldiers and officers to the new and inexperienced Brazilian army,10.000 came.Empress Leopoldina herself received the desembarking men at the port,talking to them in their native languages.God what a woman, she only lived for 9 years in Brazil,but she was the most influential and important woman in Brazilian history.I must confess, I adore her!
 
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No problem,I know you meant no harm to Brazil.Yeas I agree with you that she would do something like that,in fact in OTL,she did rally the navy and the army to defeat the Portuguese.She worked as an english translator to the first batch of navy officers and sailors,it was pretty hard to find English speakers at that time,and the instrutirs were British.She also planed and arranged for veterans soldiers of the Napoleonic wars to immigrate to Brazil and create a core of experienced soldiers and officers to the new and inexperienced Brazilian army,10.000 came.Empress Leopoldina herself received the desembarking men at the port,talking to them in their native languages.God what a woman, she only lived for 9 years in Brazil,but she was the most influential and important woman in Brazilian history.I must confess, I adore her!

She sounds like a person that TTL Reichstadt would not be saying "if Josephine were my mother, I should not be in Vienna and my father not on St. Helena". Because she sounds like she would've made a formiddable wife for Napoléon (and there most likely might have been more than one kid, if her OTL pregnancies are anything to go by). However, it would need Napoléon to actually be willing to marry someone who is as young as she was in 1810/1811, since he refused to wed his niece, Charlotte, who was only two years older than Leopoldine, on the grounds of her being too young. Maybe he'd be willing to consider it for someone who actually brings advantages (his niece would bring a reconciliation between himself and Lucien, nothing more; where as an archduchess would be reconciliation/peace with Austria, even if she is a bit young).
 
She sounds like a person that TTL Reichstadt would not be saying "if Josephine were my mother, I should not be in Vienna and my father not on St. Helena". Because she sounds like she would've made a formiddable wife for Napoléon (and there most likely might have been more than one kid, if her OTL pregnancies are anything to go by). However, it would need Napoléon to actually be willing to marry someone who is as young as she was in 1810/1811, since he refused to wed his niece, Charlotte, who was only two years older than Leopoldine, on the grounds of her being too young. Maybe he'd be willing to consider it for someone who actually brings advantages (his niece would bring a reconciliation between himself and Lucien, nothing more; where as an archduchess would be reconciliation/peace with Austria, even if she is a bit young).


Wow! Never thought about that,and yes,she probably would have strengthened Napoleon's hand a lot!Would be a match made in heaven or hell, I wonder!
 
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Wow! Never thought about that,and yes,she probably would have strengthened Napoleon's hand a lot!Would of be a match !Ade in heaven or hell, I wonder!

Well, she fell hopelessly in love with Pedro IIRC, despite the fact that he didn't really love her back (at least not in the same way). And Marie Luise fell hopelessly in love with Napoléon. And then with Neipperg. And then with Bombelles. So I could see Leopoldine falling in love with Napoléon.
 
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