Josef Mengele - Dr Hybrid???

Genetic viability is not simply a matter of comparing the number of chromosomes between related species. The beaver cross-mating experiment was a failure, the conclusion was that the two species wouldn't successfully interbreed. This is not supporting evidence that Mengele would somehow wave a magic wand and get successful crossbreeding between apes and humans.

What is this belief that Mengele was a genius able to do the impossible based on? As well as being a sadistic monster he appears to have been a meticulous record keeper but that does not make him a scientific genius. And he cannot break the laws of science. I'm not a geneticist but I am a biologist and a fairly successful scientist in my field. Human-ape hybrids are not going to happen with a 1940s understanding of biology.

I *Never* said that I expected Mengele to *succeed* at the level of the Horse x Donkey cross, simply that it was reasonable for him to be at least as successful as the Castor Castor x Castor Fiber cross. I've never seen anything written about the differences in the Chromosomes in the Great Apes (Hominididae) to indicate that it would be less successful that the crosses within Castor. And a single stillborn offspring would be viewed as simply the first successful step in experimentation that would be expected to occur throughout the 1000-year Reich.


I'm not saying the Mengele was a genius, he had a PhD in Anthropology as well as an MD and the PhD was in a program that was well tainted with German Aryan views on Anthropology. It would be quite reasonable to pose the question with Dr. Otmar Freiherr von Verschuer, who Mengele served as an assistant to.
 
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In your OP you may not have said that you expected success in this but some of the discussion in this thread has seemed to indicate that some posters believe it's possible if the Nazis just put more time into it. It isn't possible, certainly not in the 1940s. Now? Possibly, but that's based on the revolution in understanding due to advances in molecular and structural biology since the 1950s. Even now it's not clear whether it could work. It's not just the taint of Nazi pseudoscience, it's the fact that this is not possible without the sort of human intervention that won't be possible for several decades. As I mentioned earlier, leaving it to natural breeding or artificial insemination experiments there has never been a record of successful fertilization between human and ape, let alone of a foetus being produced. In the 1940s there's no possibility of going beyond those failed approaches.

By the way have one or two previous posts on this thread disappeared this afternoon? I thought someone 'shuddered' at the possibility of Mengele improving on the beaver breeder's record??
 
I could see Mengele trying this, since he is fucked up like that and all, but I can't see him succeeding
 
This idea actually was tried.

Stalin's half-man, half-ape super-warriors

THE Soviet dictator Josef Stalin ordered the creation of Planet of the Apes-style warriors by crossing humans with apes, according to recently uncovered secret documents.

Moscow archives show that in the mid-1920s Russia's top animal breeding scientist, Ilya Ivanov, was ordered to turn his skills from horse and animal work to the quest for a super-warrior.

According to Moscow newspapers, Stalin told the scientist: "I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat."

In 1926 the Politburo in Moscow passed the request to the Academy of Science with the order to build a "living war machine". The order came at a time when the Soviet Union was embarked on a crusade to turn the world upside down, with social engineering seen as a partner to industrialisation: new cities, architecture, and a new egalitarian society were being created.

The Soviet authorities were struggling to rebuild the Red Army after bruising wars.

And there was intense pressure to find a new labour force, particularly one that would not complain, with Russia about to embark on its first Five-Year Plan for fast-track industrialisation.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/international/stalin-s-half-man-half-ape-super-warriors-1-686693
 
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The second.

From here:

Wiki said:
A persistent folktale on Sumatra and Borneo and in popular culture, is that male orangutans display sexual attraction to human women, and may even forcibly copulate with them.[62] The only serious report of such an incident taking place, is primatologist Birutė Galdikas' report that her cook was sexually assaulted by a male orangutan.[63] This orangutan however was raised in captivity and may have suffered from a skewed species identity, and forced copulation is a standard mating strategy for low ranking male orangutans.[62] Male humans have also been reported to keep captive female Orangutans for sexual purposes.[64]

Seeing as how they don't live in the most developped of areas then reports might not get out and the folk tales probably have some basis I'm guessing.
 
In your OP you may not have said that you expected success in this but some of the discussion in this thread has seemed to indicate that some posters believe it's possible if the Nazis just put more time into it. It isn't possible, certainly not in the 1940s.
[...]

OK, let's try to put a measure on Success... (0-100)
0 is "Human-Goldfish" level results
5-10 is the fertilization occurs but normally spontaneously aborts *really* early.
10 is the beaver crosses. (one stillborn out of 27 tries at crosses)
45 is born alive, but dies quickly.
55 is rarely lives to Adulthood
75 is the Mule (lives to Adulthood most of time, almost always sterile)
85 is fertile, but the next generation is sterile or is only interfertile with one of the parent species(I know there are some examples)
95 is fertile with both parent species (Cow x Buffalo, I think).

I'm expecting Mengele to end up somewhere between 5 and 15. With first world Genetic technology and an open wallet in 2012. I expect somewhere between 5 and 30.
 
Why are you expecting Mengele to somehow achieve a greater level of success here than has been found by either nature or other artificial insemination attempts? This belief has no basis in science, everything we know about molecular genetics tells us that a human-ape hybrid won't occur naturally and would take human intervention that just wasn't possible in the 1940s. It may or may not be possible today, but certainly wasn't at that time. To put this all in an AH perspective, a number of (in)famous "what if's" get dismissed here as being ASB when they really aren't, they're just highly unlikely without a string of wildly contrived PODs. But Mengele having even limited success with this human-ape hybrid idea really is ASB as the only way of achieving that is by a transplantation of scientific knowledge back 70 years in time. There is no chance the Nazis can figure out how meisois works at the molecular level themselves, which is what is required before any remotely plausible experimental design can be produced. I repeat, there has never been any reported case of ape-human crossfertilization by either nature or by artificial insemination. To have any hope of success more modern techniques are required and they just aren't possible in the 1940s. Not for the Americans or the British, let alone the Nazis.

jmc247, the Stalin's human-ape army story is a media furphy that appears every now and then on the internet but it appears to have no basis in fact. There is no evidence showing that Stalin even knew about the idea. Ivanov did go to west Africa and attempted artificial insemination of three female chimps. Unsurprisingly nothing happened. He planned to attempt reciprocal experiments with female volunteers at Sukhumi on the Black Sea but these never eventuated. So there were some experiments performed but it wasn't really a Soviet scientific programme to do this (that seems to be a bit of 'slow news day' sensationalism concocted by a journalist at The Scotsman), it was the work of one man who went to absurd lengths to try to prove his deluded theories.
 
Is it possible that he, or someone, was successful? That might explain a few things in the world. To each his own in selecting what or who is attributabe to such a devlopment.

Seriously guys, come on now.
 
Why are you expecting Mengele to somehow achieve a greater level of success here than has been found by either nature or other artificial insemination attempts? This belief has no basis in science, everything we know about molecular genetics tells us that a human-ape hybrid won't occur naturally and would take human intervention that just wasn't possible in the 1940s. It may or may not be possible today, but certainly wasn't at that time. To put this all in an AH perspective, a number of (in)famous "what if's" get dismissed here as being ASB when they really aren't, they're just highly unlikely without a string of wildly contrived PODs. But Mengele having even limited success with this human-ape hybrid idea really is ASB as the only way of achieving that is by a transplantation of scientific knowledge back 70 years in time. There is no chance the Nazis can figure out how meisois works at the molecular level themselves, which is what is required before any remotely plausible experimental design can be produced. I repeat, there has never been any reported case of ape-human crossfertilization by either nature or by artificial insemination. To have any hope of success more modern techniques are required and they just aren't possible in the 1940s. Not for the Americans or the British, let alone the Nazis.

jmc247, the Stalin's human-ape army story is a media furphy that appears every now and then on the internet but it appears to have no basis in fact. There is no evidence showing that Stalin even knew about the idea. Ivanov did go to west Africa and attempted artificial insemination of three female chimps. Unsurprisingly nothing happened. He planned to attempt reciprocal experiments with female volunteers at Sukhumi on the Black Sea but these never eventuated. So there were some experiments performed but it wasn't really a Soviet scientific programme to do this (that seems to be a bit of 'slow news day' sensationalism concocted by a journalist at The Scotsman), it was the work of one man who went to absurd lengths to try to prove his deluded theories.
Ok. Im really confused.
First you claim that mengele would have to have had "greater success here than has been found by either nature or other artificial insemination attempts" (i think i got the quote close). And then you debunk the only claim for either?

Basically, the only ai attempts ever were the soviet ones, which were on a minimal scale. And if they had been carried out in russia, would have involved orangutans, which surely are too far awy to suceed.

That leaves natural. Do you know of documented cases where human men have tried to rape a chimp in estrus, let alone succeeded,which given the strength of chimps i would doubt. Or do you know of any rapes by male chimps on human females?

Sure, over thousands or tens of thousands of years such rapes probably occurred. But they could also have produced infertile young, and we wouldnt know.


You say everything we know about genetics makes it impossible. ??? Like what?

The fact of the matter is that chimps and humans split not incredibly long before lions and tigers did. And that pairing produces offspring easily. Horses and donkeys produce mules regularly, and they have different numbers of chromosomes, so thats not a problem. Heck, a few, very few, females are fertile.

So what supposed fact about genetics makes it impossible?


Personally, i suspect strongly that the egg would fertilize. You get that happening in rather more divergent lineages than human,chimp. What happens thereafter is a lot iffier. I think many fetuses, perhaps all, would be inviable. But i wouldnt be surprised in the least if a few made it to term.

Fortunately, we dont know, and i hope we dont find out.
 
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