Joint Chinese-Japanese invasion of the Soviet Union

Kaze

Banned
It would be interesting premise for the first part - Wang Jingwei becoming the leader and Wang Jingwei / Japanese alliance. It would take some skull-duggery, but it is in the realm of "possible".
As for the invasion of the Soviets, it might take some doing - probably a pretext would have to be invented - like "the Soviets are arming Mao for a coup attempt, fortunately our Japanese allies defeated the coup before it could happen, let us join them in teaching the Soviets a deadly lesson to never do it again".
 
Would the racists Japanese ever condescend to ally themselves with an inferior people (the Chinese)? I guess one could see them using the Chinese as cannon fodder.

I can see "Jingwei's" puppet government going along, but the alliance would be short lived and you have to wonder how motivated the Chinese conscripts would have been. Does this invasion occur before Barbarossa? If so, does Hitler sit back and allow the Sino-Japanese alliance do the heavy lifting, allowing Stalin to still fight a one front war, or does he commit his own troops to the mix?

If the invasion occurs in '39 does Hitler move on Russia earlier? -- What then does that do to Hitler's plans for France? -- If it's a go as early as '37 does Hitler get left out altogether?

Going with an early invasion ('35 to '37) as an off-shoot out of Japanese occupied Manchuria, Stalin, against such great numbers, would have found himself having to fight a scorched earth policy in reverse, retreating westward would have allowed Stalin to maintain control of his industrial centers and oil fields, and without German intervention (Hitler would not have been ready) would have been able to fight the Sino-Japanese forces to a stalemate.

The poorly trained (and likely unmotivated) Chinese armies, by shear numbers alone would been able to inflict early and devastating defeats the Soviets, but as with the Germans later on these early Sino-Japanese victories would eventually give way to a protracted war and the Chinese would not have been able to maintain the war logistically; the Sino-Japanese alias would have become strained and then broken. The Soviets would have prevailed.

On the other hand, given a later invasion, one as a joint effort with Operation Barbarossa (summer '41), it may well have proven disastrous for the Soviets; but the Japanese would have had to push back Pearl Harbor at least one year if not longer, and that opens up all kinds of possibilities for the Americans. (Either continued isolation or full commitment to the European theater.) If it is the former, the USSR would likely have ceased to exist, if it is the latter, Hitler may have found himself at bay in the west as early as '42, certainly by '43, and with full commitment the Americans would not have been asleep at Pearl and already in full war production.

But to repeat, one has to ask, with the later invasion ('41) occurring after the Rape of Nanjing could a defeated/puppet Chinese government be able to field a motivated army along side the hated Japanese? And then I go back to my original question, would the racists Japanese ever condescend to fight along side Chinese troops?

I don't mean to be disrespectful (as you can see I enjoyed trying to answer the question) but (IMHO) Japanese racism makes this question come close to being ASB. I don't believe the Japanese would ever ally themselves with any Asian sub-group.
 
But to repeat, one has to ask, with the later invasion ('41) occurring after the Rape of Nanjing could a defeated/puppet Chinese government be able to field a motivated army along side the hated Japanese?
The POD is Wang Jingwei beating Chiang Kai-shek pre-1937 and no Second Sino-Japanese war.

And then I go back to my original question, would the racists Japanese ever condescend to fight along side Chinese troops?
They did otl in China against Anti-Japanese Chinese forces

The poorly trained (and likely unmotivated) Chinese armies, by shear numbers alone would been able to inflict early and devastating defeats the Soviets
Wouldn't the German advisers, Who now have no reason to leave, help with that ?
 
The POD is Wang Jingwei beating Chiang Kai-shek pre-1937 and no Second Sino-Japanese war.


They did otl in China against other Anti-Japanese Chinese forces


Wouldn't the German advisers, Who now have no reason to leave, help with that ?

I did address the pre-1937 possibility, sorry I digressed into the '41 possibility, I didn't think it would hurt.

Allied with them, or used them? -- I would argue it would have been a different relationship going into Russia long term; I don't see that action as an alliance.

Were there German troops in Asia/China that early? Certainly I could see how their presence would have helped build a better army.
 
I did address the pre-1937 possibility, sorry I digressed into the '41 possibility, I didn't think it would hurt.
Not issue, You mentioned the Rape of Nanjing which kind of weird if the Second Sino-Japanese war doesn't happen.

Allied with them, or used them? -- I would argue it would have been a different relationship going into Russia long term; I don't see that action as an alliance.
Is that really any issue if they are both fighting together ?

Where there German troops in Asia/China that early? Certainly I could see how their presence would have helped build a better army.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-...1)#Germany_and_Chinese_military_modernisation
 
If China and Japan end up fighting the Western Powers together. How an Allied invasion of China go and How would China and Japan be divided post-war.
 
What would Japan get out of this deal? They'll want Manchukuo and Mengjiang, and I can't see Chiang being too thrilled about that.

In the IJA at least, you have Iwane Matsui who was quite willing to work with the Chinese
 
Say Wang Jingwei beats Chiang Kai-shek for leadership of China

Could Wang Jingwei go with an alliance with Japan with China being compensated with Territories in Central Asia in exchange for recognizing Japanese control of Manchuria

What would time would be best for China and Japan to attack the Soviet Union

How would war between the Asian powers and the Soviet Union go

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Jingwei#Political_activities_in_Chiang's_government

No, the Japanese main goals from 1937-1945 was to "win" in China, if the Second Sino-Japanese War just does not happen, the Japanese won't have much of a motivation to do anything at overly aggressive as in OTL. Going into Indochina, the Oil Embargo, and Pearl Harbour all happened because the Japanese could not gain peace in China and were left trying to cut off Chinese supplies from Indochina. If that situation is not there, it is not clear what Japan would do since Mengjiang is not a thing, so there is not even a reason to go "liberate" Mongolia. Resources are out of the question the Southern Resource Area has far more resources than the North, and if there is no need to go South why go North?
 
Resources are out of the question the Southern Resource Area has far more resources than the North, and if there is no need to go South why go North?
Anti-Communism, They did occupy the Russian far east during the Russian revolution and even if they don't have as much Resources going North means they don't have to fight Britain,France, and the United States also means the removal of Russian power in the Far East if successfully .
 
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