John the Fearless in Paris...

When did he invade France after Agincourt?

Some sources say 10 days later, some not until 1418. Which is it?

Also, what are the consequences of him not getting assassinated?
 
He didn't invaded France : you have to remember that the Armagnac/Bourguignion Civil War is a political infighting, not only dynastical.

Basically, Bourguignons were supporters of the side which had Jean de Bourgogne as a leaders, rather than Burgundians.

Northern France was eventually fought over by both sides since 1407 and while Armagnacs took control of Paris in 1414 (that was Bourguinon-controlled in 1406 and 1408, and generally had an important Bourguingon influence during the whole period), it doesn't mean that the Bourguignon recover of the city in 1418 was an invasion from Burgundy.

It's hard to really map these influences, and the only one I could find about it was about 1429 (and it's an incomplete one, critically giving the factional nature of the conflict at least for Northern France).

Also, what are the consequences of him not getting assassinated?
Roughly, an earlier Treaty of Arras, maybe more favourable to Charles VIII (on Somme, for exemple)
 
At which point, then, did burgundy achieve semi-autonomy from France?

Was John really so interested in befriending the French king?
 
At which point, then, did burgundy achieve semi-autonomy from France?
As a duchy? Right when it became an apanage, in 1363-1364.

Was John really so interested in befriending the French king?
It's less about befireding than political interests : Bourguignons wanted the lead in France, and for that, gaining the lead in French court (as they obtained before Orléans-Armagnacs chased them) was the obvious and easier solution, as negociations with Lancasters didn't opened as much possibilities.

Not before Jean was murdered that a reconciliation became impossible to have before 10 years.
 
So if John survives an attempt on his life, what are his options? Is he more likely to join the English? Does he still reconcile with the Dauphin?
 
What needs to change for him to survive, I guess, is what I'm really asking?

Coming with an escort, and maybe in another place : that the meeting was made in Montreau, on a covered bridge and on a limited space didn't help.

I suppose that delaying the English attack on Poissy could maintain the location at Pouilly-le-Fort, as negociations began there.
 
So...John's a dead man?

I'd like to work it into my TL that he stays alive a bit longer and joins the English in capitalizing on the English victory at Agincourt. How plausible is this?
 
So...John's a dead man?
Not necessarily. A survival of Louis or Jean as Dauphin, or a successful capture of Charles VII (which would have efficiently beheaded the Armagnac faction) could make Jean de Bourgogne the big man of France, even after Agincourt.

I'd like to work it into my TL that he stays alive a bit longer and joins the English in capitalizing on the English victory at Agincourt. How plausible is this?
Not much : again it would require an Henry V far more disposed to make concessions, probably up to renounce his claims on the throne.
Maybe butterflying away Agincourt, and giving away to Lancasters part of the kingdom, Brétigny-style? It's not particularily plausible, giving Henry V's personality and ambitions.
 
Not necessarily. A survival of Louis or Jean as Dauphin, or a successful capture of Charles VII (which would have efficiently beheaded the Armagnac faction) could make Jean de Bourgogne the big man of France, even after Agincourt.


Not much : again it would require an Henry V far more disposed to make concessions, probably up to renounce his claims on the throne.
Maybe butterflying away Agincourt, and giving away to Lancasters part of the kingdom, Brétigny-style? It's not particularily plausible, giving Henry V's personality and ambitions.

I think a capture of Charles VII creates the kind of scenario I'm looking for. I don't want to butterfly away Agincourt, and I don't want the political landscape in England to change much, other than the natural reaction to beating France even harder.

I don't want to have Henry V be magically different than he was OTL. I want him to capitalize on his success no more or less than he did historically. Just looking for a way for Burgundy to come out [even] stronger. Wondering if I should just let John die and wank his son.
 
I think a capture of Charles VII creates the kind of scenario I'm looking for. I don't want to butterfly away Agincourt, and I don't want the political landscape in England to change much, other than the natural reaction to beating France even harder.
Actually, it would make Bourguignon faction being the main one in France. While I'm expecting more important negociations with Henry V, it would make Jean de Bourgogne even less encline to give away the throne to Lancasters, as he have a definitive political and ideological interest supporting Valois.

Note that it would be less Burgundy's victory (as in a duchy's victory) than a Bourguignon's victory (as in a French faction led by the Duke of Burgundy) : the distinction between both really appeared after 1419.
Of course a Bourguignon's victory would benefit the duchy, but you won't have a "Lotharingian" tentation ITTL.

Wondering if I should just let John die and wank his son.
Without Jean's murder in 1419, and critically if Charles VII is under Bourguignon influence, I don't think you'd have an alliance comparable to IOTL between Lancasters and Bourguignons (which was a relatively fragile one, at least for what mattered Burgundy)
 
Actually, it would make Bourguignon faction being the main one in France. While I'm expecting more important negociations with Henry V, it would make Jean de Bourgogne even less encline to give away the throne to Lancasters, as he have a definitive political and ideological interest supporting Valois.

Note that it would be less Burgundy's victory (as in a duchy's victory) than a Bourguignon's victory (as in a French faction led by the Duke of Burgundy) : the distinction between both really appeared after 1419.
Of course a Bourguignon's victory would benefit the duchy, but you won't have a "Lotharingian" tentation ITTL.

So what kind of scenario does a Bourguignon-controlled France create? Does Jean then lead France against Henry? What of the succession, should something 'befall' Charles VII (I'm just not familiar with France/England, not as much as you to be sure, LS)? Is there any way for Jean to become a king in his own right? Is an even earlier separation of Burgundy (to mostly-sovereign state) ASB or even possible under Jean, or do I have to wait for things to develop as OTL under Phillip?


Without Jean's murder in 1419, and critically if Charles VII is under Bourguignon influence, I don't think you'd have an alliance comparable to IOTL between Lancasters and Bourguignons (which was a relatively fragile one, at least for what mattered Burgundy)

Could you have neutrality, at least? Or would Henry pursue his claim on France, no matter who controls it?
 
So what kind of scenario does a Bourguignon-controlled France create?
Well, royal power would be relatively limited : with Charles VI still alive, and insane, Jean would be the ruler de facto of France and probably regent of Charles VII when we'll be king.
Eventually, you may end with struggles from the new king to recover a strong royal power, probably with nobiliar support. It would like a lot to the largely Burgundian regency of Charles VI.

Does Jean then lead France against Henry?
Most probably : at this point, they already blamed defeats on Armagnacs and with Henry V still pretty much sure of his victory, Jean would have to act again (if in an attentist manner).
I don't think, however, he'll try very hard to push back Henry V from France entierly : he doesn't have much interest to do, and at the first opportunity of negociations, would try to settle the question at least temporarily.

What of the succession, should something 'befall' Charles VII?
Jean doesn't have much interest doing so : if Charles dies, the succession would go to Orléans, prisoner in England. The duke would try proclaim himself regent, but it would have been a moral and political blow, unless the ransom was payed previously, but Jean would have very little interest giving Armagnacs their "natural" leader back, and as a possible king.

Is there any way for Jean to become a king in his own right?
Apart from having any possible successor of Charles conveniently dying? Not much.

Is an even earlier separation of Burgundy (to mostly-sovereign state) ASB or even possible under Jean, or do I have to wait for things to develop as OTL under Phillip?
You'd have to wait, IMO, keeping in mind that such PoD would make pretty nice and gigantic history-eater butterflies. The focus given on France may turn the Dukes to not entierly consider separating as a state, even while increasing their grasp on imperial lands.

Could you have neutrality, at least? Or would Henry pursue his claim on France, no matter who controls it?
The latter, basically. He's on a strong position, France being weakened and divided...At least, he would try to pull an Edward III and to see how far he could go, and Burgundians (while able to stop the advance) would have to deal with that.
 
Top