John "Softsword" Beats Capets

We all know that John lost against Philip of France. An attempt to regain the lands failed and he had to raise taxes after the failed attempt. Unlike the legend, he raised it on his Earls and clergy so now everyone with power hated him.

Let's start with not killing Arthur and making him a Norman Count.

OK, let's say he wins. In the first battle, he overruns Phillip's investing force at Château Gaillard and takes 3,000 prisoners. Three years later Phillip attacks again in a full frontal assault when the Normans forget to close the gate. Against all odds, the castle holds out. Phillip sends out a proclamation escheating Normandy from John, which the Normans ignore.

Pope Innocent III orders France to be attacked. John signs on with the Kingdom of Navarre, the Holy Roman Empire, and the County of Flanders. A 1211 Battle of Bouvines take place with the Alliance overrunning the French. Dauphin Louis is present in the battle. Arthur challenges Louis and two of his knights to a three on one duel, which is accepted. Arthur wins and captures Louis.

John demands Phillip pay him big time. He wants enough money to cover his mercenary costs plus triple John's annual income. He accepts Phillip as overlord for the Duchies of Aquitaine, Gascony, Poitou, and count of dozens including Maine, and Touraine.

For the Duchy of Normandy and the County of Anjou, he wants a Church commission to determine if Phillip mistreated his tenant. If it is determined Phillip did not or did not mistreat him too much, then it will be deemed the fines are enough to compensate and Normandy can only be revoked if both the French King and the catholic church deem a future action by the Duke of Normandy is traitorous. The Duchy cannot be revoked if the tenant does not betray his liege lord. If the commission determines he was mistreated a lot, then the Duchy of Normandy and Country of Anjou would be transferred to the Kingdom of Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany or East Francia, whatever you want to call it and the King of Germans will pay some compensation. If the commission determines Phillip's actions to be greatly tyrannous, then Normandy and Anjou are transferred without compensation.

The commission will consist of the Bishop of Mainz, a Norman Bishop, someone the Pope choses, and 4 bishops Phillip selects. It will investigate the issue for 3 years and best 4 out of 7 choses.

John decides staying in Rouen for a decade might be nice, spending 9 months out of 12 there every year.

Ok, now what? Aside from the fact the commission will just be a big show with an obvious outcome. John doesn't need to raise taxes to get Normandy back. In fact, he has a nice treasury from Richard I plus some payment. Let's see how quickly he manages to mess that up. Sometimes I think John was retarded enough to wear his crown pointy side down because he had zero charisma but he kept insisting on showing up to his Earls in person.,
 
We all know that John lost against Philip of France. An attempt to regain the lands failed and he had to raise taxes after the failed attempt. Unlike the legend, he raised it on his Earls and clergy so now everyone with power hated him.

Let's start with not killing Arthur and making him a Norman Count.

OK, let's say he wins. In the first battle, he overruns Phillip's investing force at Château Gaillard and takes 3,000 prisoners. Three years later Phillip attacks again in a full frontal assault when the Normans forget to close the gate. Against all odds, the castle holds out. Phillip sends out a proclamation escheating Normandy from John, which the Normans ignore.

Pope Innocent III orders France to be attacked. John signs on with the Kingdom of Navarre, the Holy Roman Empire, and the County of Flanders. A 1211 Battle of Bouvines take place with the Alliance overrunning the French. Dauphin Louis is present in the battle. Arthur challenges Louis and two of his knights to a three on one duel, which is accepted. Arthur wins and captures Louis.

John demands Phillip pay him big time. He wants enough money to cover his mercenary costs plus triple John's annual income. He accepts Phillip as overlord for the Duchies of Aquitaine, Gascony, Poitou, and count of dozens including Maine, and Touraine.

For the Duchy of Normandy and the County of Anjou, he wants a Church commission to determine if Phillip mistreated his tenant. If it is determined Phillip did not or did not mistreat him too much, then it will be deemed the fines are enough to compensate and Normandy can only be revoked if both the French King and the catholic church deem a future action by the Duke of Normandy is traitorous. The Duchy cannot be revoked if the tenant does not betray his liege lord. If the commission determines he was mistreated a lot, then the Duchy of Normandy and Country of Anjou would be transferred to the Kingdom of Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany or East Francia, whatever you want to call it and the King of Germans will pay some compensation. If the commission determines Phillip's actions to be greatly tyrannous, then Normandy and Anjou are transferred without compensation.

The commission will consist of the Bishop of Mainz, a Norman Bishop, someone the Pope choses, and 4 bishops Phillip selects. It will investigate the issue for 3 years and best 4 out of 7 choses.

John decides staying in Rouen for a decade might be nice, spending 9 months out of 12 there every year.

Ok, now what? Aside from the fact the commission will just be a big show with an obvious outcome. John doesn't need to raise taxes to get Normandy back. In fact, he has a nice treasury from Richard I plus some payment. Let's see how quickly he manages to mess that up. Sometimes I think John was retarded enough to wear his crown pointy side down because he had zero charisma but he kept insisting on showing up to his Earls in person.,


If John decides to ally with Arthur, Eleanor of Brittany ends up marrying the the Count of Champagne, Theobald and he stays away with Isabella of Angouleme, he would marry Alice of France instead.

I think John needs to agree a partition of the Angevin Empire with Arthur, Anjou-Aquitaine to Arthur and Normandy to John.
 
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Why do Anjou and Normandy get given to the king of Germany? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply have it given to John?

The commission's makeup seems a little odd - why does Philippe get to choose four members of the commission, while John only gets one? Not only that, but why is the Archbishop of Mainz getting involved in a matter that doesn't concern the kingdom of Burgundy, unless his role is to be a neutral observer in the event of a tie (a la king of Bohemia in the imperial elections).

Why does John want to stay in Rouen? More to the point, why the majority of his time there? The English barons are going to get restive about an absent king - they've just had that with Richard, and I'm pretty sure they don't want a repeat of that. And why is Arthur simply being Uncle Jack's lapdog? I agree with the idea of splitting the empire, though. But IMHO I think the terms you've imposed on Philippe (defeated or no) are enough to make him/France want to come back swinging. In the 19th century they lost Lorraine-Alsace and look at what they wanted for Germany at Versailles.
 
I think Philippe would not get the majority of the commission members, that would go to John, and there would be one completly impartial member.

Anjou and Normandy would be confiscated to France not given to some far away elected King.
 
Let's break this down.

In OTL, Arthur and some Norman rebels tried to instill Arthur as King of England and lord of Richard I's domains. Phillip/Philippe of France backed this rebellion, although he'd likely screw Arthur the same way he did with John. Arthur was captured and died in captivity, probably by John's orders. He then seized the Duchy of Brittany... not the title but military and administrative control of it. John planned to give it to Arthur's sister and then marry her to someone. This is completely wrong legally since it belonged to Geoffrey not Richard before Arthur became duke, so he has no right to do this.

Here, let's say John spares the boy. He then tells him that Philip is trying to destroy the Normans and shows the letters sent by Philip's steward to John encouraging him to rebel against Richard. John tells Arthur they need to work together until Philip kicks the bucket. He also says Arthur is a young boy and was easily swayed by evil outsiders, just as John once was. John then does the dubious controlling of Brittany as in OTL, but promises to give it back to Arthur when Arthur shows his loyalty to the family, can speak fluent Breton (local language), and promises to promote Breton among the Breton counts, his children, his grand children, and his great grandchildren. After this version of Battle of Bouvines, Arthur showed his courage and loyalty on the battlefield. Let's say he picked up Lain (the language of the educated in these times) and Breton. John keeps his word and tells his Norman administrators to leave and let Arthur's people take over.

In OTL John married Isabella of Angouleme which offended Philip. Now, I'm not sure why John married it because most men have a "minimum boob diameter" requirement to be attracted to a female and her portraits during coronation look flat, not surprising as she was 12 or 13. Anyways, this led to a series which led to the confiscation of John's French lands.

In TTL John's goal is not to break free from Philip, but preserve his lands. Even the most "Philip friendly" of the commission's outcomes would prevent further attempts to confiscate the land by restricting it to a rebellious tenant. In OTL, Kings can revoke titles for any reason they want, although if the vassal wasn't rebellious they often gave compensation. Here, either Philip loses the ability to confiscate John's land or it goes to someone else entirely.

I was intending to have the Pope select most of the commission, but let's just roll with my OP with Philip getting that many. Why does John offer such a generous way out for Philip? Well, let's just say it's King John bring John. OTL John's reign is regarded as a disaster for th dynasty remember.

In OTL, the three most powerful vassals in England also have land in Normandy, this includes the Honor of Lancaster. A lot of the Earls were Anglo-Norman. I'd say maybe 1/7 of all his earls held land in Normandy, and some of them had relatives who did. Lancaster, Mercia, and Kent had the highest concentration of nobles that had land in Normandy. Anglo-Saxon earls who were not displaced by normands did not. Most barons did not have land in Normandy. And both his earls and his barons (even the purly anglo ones) were like "we miss king Richard the Lionheart" after 1204 (the loss of France and Anjou).

So I think his barons tolerated Richard. If they wished for him back in 1205, what makes you think they were getting restive during Richard's reign?

I'll figure out John's plan for the Agevin Empire, although someone will probably mess it up. Maybe Jhon.
 
Let's break this down.

In OTL, Arthur and some Norman rebels tried to instill Arthur as King of England and lord of Richard I's domains. Phillip/Philippe of France backed this rebellion, although he'd likely screw Arthur the same way he did with John. Arthur was captured and died in captivity, probably by John's orders. He then seized the Duchy of Brittany... not the title but military and administrative control of it. John planned to give it to Arthur's sister and then marry her to someone. This is completely wrong legally since it belonged to Geoffrey not Richard before Arthur became duke, so he has no right to do this.

Here, let's say John spares the boy. He then tells him that Philip is trying to destroy the Normans and shows the letters sent by Philip's steward to John encouraging him to rebel against Richard. John tells Arthur they need to work together until Philip kicks the bucket. He also says Arthur is a young boy and was easily swayed by evil outsiders, just as John once was. John then does the dubious controlling of Brittany as in OTL, but promises to give it back to Arthur when Arthur shows his loyalty to the family, can speak fluent Breton (local language), and promises to promote Breton among the Breton counts, his children, his grand children, and his great grandchildren. After this version of Battle of Bouvines, Arthur showed his courage and loyalty on the battlefield. Let's say he picked up Lain (the language of the educated in these times) and Breton. John keeps his word and tells his Norman administrators to leave and let Arthur's people take over.

In OTL John married Isabella of Angouleme which offended Philip. Now, I'm not sure why John married it because most men have a "minimum boob diameter" requirement to be attracted to a female and her portraits during coronation look flat, not surprising as she was 12 or 13. Anyways, this led to a series which led to the confiscation of John's French lands.

In TTL John's goal is not to break free from Philip, but preserve his lands. Even the most "Philip friendly" of the commission's outcomes would prevent further attempts to confiscate the land by restricting it to a rebellious tenant. In OTL, Kings can revoke titles for any reason they want, although if the vassal wasn't rebellious they often gave compensation. Here, either Philip loses the ability to confiscate John's land or it goes to someone else entirely.

I was intending to have the Pope select most of the commission, but let's just roll with my OP with Philip getting that many. Why does John offer such a generous way out for Philip? Well, let's just say it's King John bring John. OTL John's reign is regarded as a disaster for th dynasty remember.

In OTL, the three most powerful vassals in England also have land in Normandy, this includes the Honor of Lancaster. A lot of the Earls were Anglo-Norman. I'd say maybe 1/7 of all his earls held land in Normandy, and some of them had relatives who did. Lancaster, Mercia, and Kent had the highest concentration of nobles that had land in Normandy. Anglo-Saxon earls who were not displaced by normands did not. Most barons did not have land in Normandy. And both his earls and his barons (even the purly anglo ones) were like "we miss king Richard the Lionheart" after 1204 (the loss of France and Anjou).

So I think his barons tolerated Richard. If they wished for him back in 1205, what makes you think they were getting restive during Richard's reign?

I'll figure out John's plan for the Agevin Empire, although someone will probably mess it up. Maybe Jhon.
What about John marrying Berengaria's sister Blanche..I think the intended husband for Eleanor of Brittany was Robert Dreux in OTL, I think Eleanor of Brittany can marry the King of Navarre, Sancho..
 
What about John marrying Berengaria's sister Blanche..I think the intended husband for Eleanor of Brittany was Robert Dreux in OTL, I think Eleanor of Brittany can marry the King of Navarre, Sancho..

Let me think about that. I'll still imagine John marrying Isabella. Eleanor X Sancho sounds good.
 
OK, I'm still going with John marrying Isabella of Angouleme. This is what causes Phillipe to try to revoke Normandy from him. Let's say Eleanor marries Sancho VII of Navarre, solidifying the already existing alliance between Sancho and the Normans.
 
Hm, is Alice and John on good terms?

Is John facing restless Earls (in OTL he had restless barons)? On one hand, he has a nice treasury from Richard and he padded it with three years worth of income from Philippe, who lost the ability to revoke the Duchy (because the commission will pick the most Philippe friendly outcome). He also has no need to raise taxes. So he's building either a warchest, or maybe a rainy day fund. He had been working with an alliance with Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire like in OTL, plus Navarre thaks to Sancho and Elanor

On the other hand, John spending time in Rouen, might make some of the barons restless. 1/7 o his earls hold land in Normandy and most of the rest are related to those in Normandy, but plenty of the barons are not. His actions of being in Normandy might forment unrest. This isn't that days of Henry I who thought of himself primarily as a Norman who simply happened to be King of someplace else.

Furthermore, he doesn't have many battlefield feats to boast about. Like OTL, his actions against Richard ended in failure. As King, he DID beat Philippe in TTL. However, the first battle was an easy win since most of the enemy was tied to Château Gaillard, so it was easier than a normal field battle. In the next major victory, the one with a failed castle assault and a heroic defense after the enemy poured in through the open main gate, John wasn't even present and the hero of the battlefield was the castle lord, a Norman count. In the third huge victory, John was tactician, but the man of the hour was a cavalry commander with 1/3 of his knights, Arthur Plantagenet who beat three men in a duel.

He proposes giving Arthur the 3/4 of Aquitaine. He also suggests giving the County of Anjou to be run by Arthur and his descendants, until Arthur has no living children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren, after which Anjou reverts to John's line.

Would Arthur get a bit restless? Early in his life, Philippe convinced him to rebel against John. John captured him, but put him in comfortable quarters and later released him, with no permanent punishment. His grandmother Eleanor of Aquitaine convinced him to side with John. He got Brittany, his inheritance, back and is running it without John's interference. He also saw Phillipe's letters to John and realizes Philippe indends to destroy the Normans.

On the other hand, John held Brittany, Arthur's inheritance, for a few years after capturing and releasing Arthur. For that matter, Arthur is the rightful heir of Normandy. While he put that aside and was placated at first with promises from John, as looks more heroic and John having no big accomplishments, he might either be loyal (he was 12 years old, young enough to be molded) or perhaps ambitious, realizing he is outshining his uncle. Arthur captured prisoners in the TTL battle too, so he probably ransomed them off and got his payday. And would he be grateful or disappointed at John's offer of Anjou, which isn't completely given outright?

My guess is that he would not openly rebel, but if the earls tried to enthrone in, he would show John he has nothing to do with them while sitting in his castle and not spending a dime to stop it either.

Now for Philippe. He had been humiliated on the battlefield and been forced to give John compensation after John singed up on the Pope's offer. This is enough to make him want to come back swinging, but the previous attempts had proven his siege engines can't break the castles and his only hope is starvation of a garrison without letting a relief force arrive.

On the other hand, given that he had mistreated his tenant who, after victorious, could have demanded to be no longer bound by his tyrannous liege, instead allowed Phillipe allowed to chose most of the commission (I was going for the Pope, but let's just roll with my OP and have it John being John and making bad decisions), he has a face saving way out, with nothing more than paying money. In fact, even if the battle was indecisive (instead of an Anvegin victory) but Dauphin Louis gets captured, Phillipe would have to pay a ransom anyways.
 
Hm, is Alice and John on good terms?

Is John facing restless Earls (in OTL he had restless barons)? On one hand, he has a nice treasury from Richard and he padded it with three years worth of income from Philippe, who lost the ability to revoke the Duchy (because the commission will pick the most Philippe friendly outcome). He also has no need to raise taxes. So he's building either a warchest, or maybe a rainy day fund. He had been working with an alliance with Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire like in OTL, plus Navarre thaks to Sancho and Elanor

On the other hand, John spending time in Rouen, might make some of the barons restless. 1/7 o his earls hold land in Normandy and most of the rest are related to those in Normandy, but plenty of the barons are not. His actions of being in Normandy might forment unrest. This isn't that days of Henry I who thought of himself primarily as a Norman who simply happened to be King of someplace else.

Furthermore, he doesn't have many battlefield feats to boast about. Like OTL, his actions against Richard ended in failure. As King, he DID beat Philippe in TTL. However, the first battle was an easy win since most of the enemy was tied to Château Gaillard, so it was easier than a normal field battle. In the next major victory, the one with a failed castle assault and a heroic defense after the enemy poured in through the open main gate, John wasn't even present and the hero of the battlefield was the castle lord, a Norman count. In the third huge victory, John was tactician, but the man of the hour was a cavalry commander with 1/3 of his knights, Arthur Plantagenet who beat three men in a duel.

He proposes giving Arthur the 3/4 of Aquitaine. He also suggests giving the County of Anjou to be run by Arthur and his descendants, until Arthur has no living children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren, after which Anjou reverts to John's line.

Would Arthur get a bit restless? Early in his life, Philippe convinced him to rebel against John. John captured him, but put him in comfortable quarters and later released him, with no permanent punishment. His grandmother Eleanor of Aquitaine convinced him to side with John. He got Brittany, his inheritance, back and is running it without John's interference. He also saw Phillipe's letters to John and realizes Philippe indends to destroy the Normans.

On the other hand, John held Brittany, Arthur's inheritance, for a few years after capturing and releasing Arthur. For that matter, Arthur is the rightful heir of Normandy. While he put that aside and was placated at first with promises from John, as looks more heroic and John having no big accomplishments, he might either be loyal (he was 12 years old, young enough to be molded) or perhaps ambitious, realizing he is outshining his uncle. Arthur captured prisoners in the TTL battle too, so he probably ransomed them off and got his payday. And would he be grateful or disappointed at John's offer of Anjou, which isn't completely given outright?

My guess is that he would not openly rebel, but if the earls tried to enthrone in, he would show John he has nothing to do with them while sitting in his castle and not spending a dime to stop it either.

Now for Philippe. He had been humiliated on the battlefield and been forced to give John compensation after John singed up on the Pope's offer. This is enough to make him want to come back swinging, but the previous attempts had proven his siege engines can't break the castles and his only hope is starvation of a garrison without letting a relief force arrive.

On the other hand, given that he had mistreated his tenant who, after victorious, could have demanded to be no longer bound by his tyrannous liege, instead allowed Phillipe allowed to chose most of the commission (I was going for the Pope, but let's just roll with my OP and have it John being John and making bad decisions), he has a face saving way out, with nothing more than paying money. In fact, even if the battle was indecisive (instead of an Anvegin victory) but Dauphin Louis gets captured, Phillipe would have to pay a ransom anyways.
The other nieces of John like Joanna of Flanders were close to John, while Alice of Champagne could be helped by John against her cousin Theobald of Champagne who is supported by Philippe Auguste, I think Alice can be married to a person that John approves.
 
What about having Louis VIII marry his first cousin who is also John's niece, Alice of Jerusalem/Champagne..this case the marriage would border on illegal and France remains in interdict for a long time..While Blanche marries Peter the Catholic and Eleanor of Brittany marries Sancho..
 
There is another POD have Eleanor of Brittany marry the Duke of Burgundy in 1199 which was also proposed.
 
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Here are the marriages that should happen
Eleanor of Brittany marries the Duke of Burgundy or the King of Aragon or the King of Navarre in 1199
Margaret of Flanders marries William II Longspee

Alice of Jerusalem gets married to man of John's choosing
 
Here are the marriages that should happen
Eleanor of Brittany marries the Duke of Burgundy or the King of Aragon or the King of Navarre in 1199
Margaret of Flanders marries William II Longspee

Alice of Jerusalem gets married to man of John's choosing

Can you explain to me why the Margret and William is favorable to John (so that he proposes it) and Margret (so that she doesn't try to find someone higher)?
 
Can you explain to me why the Margret and William is favorable to John (so that he proposes it) and Margret (so that she doesn't try to find someone higher)?
The marriage of Margaret of Flanders to William II Longspee is the plan of Joan of Flanders to ally with her uncle John..the marriage with Avesnes was the machination of Philippe Auguste..that marriage also mixes the blood of Henry II with the Blesvins..
 
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I forgot to say, the other POD after the death of Arthur would be to marry Eleanor of Brittany to Robert III of Dreux(I think that would happen if the Breton nobles chose to ally with John in 1208) and the Joan of Flanders marriage with Ferdinand of Portugal is Success and they have issue..
 
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My idea is to marry Eleanor of Brittany to Hugh of Lusignan who was in OTL supposed to marry Isabella of Angouleme..which is a good scenario if Arthur of Brittany survives.
 
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