Joan: Daughter of Mary, Queen of Scots

On June 19, 1566 Queen Mary of Scotland's only child, Prince James was born. Her son later became King James VI of Scotland and James I of England.
Suppose that in 1566 Queen Mary does not have a son. Instead she has a daughter, Princess Joan.
Joan is named after Joan Beaufort, the Queen Consort of King James I.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Assuming that Joan will have a male child by 1600, then the throne would go to the male child. If Joan is not with child, then it would have gone to a distant cousin, someone on the continent. Joan would have still ascended the throne is Scotland, but unlikely she would in England.
 
Assuming that Joan will have a male child by 1600, then the throne would go to the male child. If Joan is not with child, then it would have gone to a distant cousin, someone on the continent. Joan would have still ascended the throne is Scotland, but unlikely she would in England.

Was the normal practice for the grandson to take over even if the mother was alive? In English history, it sort-of happened with Henry II but his mother had already had her chance and ruined it. Until Elizabeth II, I don't think there were any Queen regnants who already had a son.
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Was the normal practice for the grandson to take over even if the mother was alive? In English history, it sort-of happened with Henry II but his mother had already had her chance and ruined it. Until Elizabeth II, I don't think there were any Queen regnants who already had a son.

Queen Victoria. By the time of her death she nine children, four of which were male, the oldest in his fifties. So, well, no, a ruling female Monarch wouldn't have their throne just given away. The reason why James got the throne IOTL was because Elizabeth died without issue and he was the last (legitimate) descendant of Henry VII. If Joan does not have a son by 1600, then Joan would most likely be given the throne. If she does have a son, then I imagine she would still rule over Scotland until her death, at which point her son, the English King, would take the Scottish Throne.

EDIT: Now I think about it it'd be arbitrary for them to just give the son the throne.
 
Last edited:

Nocrazy

Banned
Hmmm. Would it be possible for someone else besides Joan to take the throne? And what becomes of England as a whole? I mean, we probably are going to see a VERY different England without the Stuarts. At best, somehow, it doesn't seem like Joan would have a very secure throne. There were pretenders here and there, (like always) but could any of them have succeded? I mean, what do we know of this Joan?
 
Not a lot....

...But at least she's not 'Pope Joan'.

As Old Lizzie's niece, she could take the throne as a sitting monarch. We could have a more reliable Queen Cristina here - but she must beget heirs...

We need somebody reliable and English...;)
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
...But at least she's not 'Pope Joan'.

As Old Lizzie's niece, she could take the throne as a sitting monarch. We could have a more reliable Queen Cristina here - but she must beget heirs...

We need somebody reliable and English...;)

As a scot I can tell you that Joan would get the throne as the last descendent of Henry VII. Pretenders would probobly come from Spain
 
As a scot I can tell you that Joan would get the throne as the last descendent of Henry VII. Pretenders would probobly come from Spain
The Greys and their descendants are still running around, as are a few collateral lines of the Stuarts descended from Henry VII. She's not the only descendant, just the most senior.
 
The Greys and their descendants are still running around, as are a few collateral lines of the Stuarts descended from Henry VII. She's not the only descendant, just the most senior.

Plus, the descendants of Mary Tudor (Greys and Stanleys, mainly) were legally ahead of the House of Stewart, according to the the Third Act of Succession, 1544. This is despite them being genealogically junior, so that's where your pretenders are going to come from.
 
My concern is with the heir in place, Mary would still get deposed. So, who would the Scots nobility want their queen to marry? A Scots noble or foreign prince?
 
If Joan is as much like James as a female monarch realistically could be, what differences would there be?

The exception being marriage since it's not going to be to Anne of Denmark. The youngest Danish prince was 17 years younger (and would be six during the OTL marriage) and while James was reportedly disinterested in women and possibly gay so a Joan may not be too bothered about the lack of sex, that's a long gap for Joan to wait before she can produce an heir. (Also, six year olds are annoying) Would it happen anyway or is there a more likely dynasty to marry into?
 
If Joan is as much like James as a female monarch realistically could be, what differences would there be?

The exception being marriage since it's not going to be to Anne of Denmark. The youngest Danish prince was 17 years younger (and would be six during the OTL marriage) and while James was reportedly disinterested in women and possibly gay so a Joan may not be too bothered about the lack of sex, that's a long gap for Joan to wait before she can produce an heir. (Also, six year olds are annoying) Would it happen anyway or is there a more likely dynasty to marry into?

It doesn't have to a Danish prince, any German protestant would do. Perhaps an Orange or Hohenzollern.
 
Firstly - James VI succeeded to Elizabeth for several main reasons - he was already a reigning monarch, he was Protestant, he was male, and he already had legitimate heirs.
Elizabeth might not have been keen on naming an heir but her own sense of royalty and her dislike for most of her English born combined with their "semi-royal" birth meant she turned a blind eye to her leading courtiers and councillors paving the way for James' relative smooth succession.

Secondly - there is a risk that Mary will not be deposed in a scenario where her and Darnley have a daughter - (i think it is far more likely to be Mary or Margaret). If she isn't then remarriage and further issue is likely (and that is assuming Darnley is still murdered).

If things follow as in OTL and Mary is deposed then the infant princess will be proclaimed Queen of Scots in her mother's stead and will be given a similar upbringing to James - her marriage is going to be of great interest but will largely be dictated by her Protestant Lords, which rules out the great Catholic powers.

The English succession is interesting she will be as James VI was in OTL - the senior primogeniture heir to Elizabeth I.

Elizabeth's council will probably still lean towards her in preference to the rather complex succession from Henry VII's younger daughter (the legal heirs under Henry VIII's will and the third succession act).

I can't really see a reason for the English to jump over her in favour of her son and it would complicate the succession even more.

I can see Elizabeth having a great interest in who she married and I would expect (as she did with Mary) her to offer suggestions for a husband for the young Scots Queen.
 
It doesn't have to a Danish prince, any German protestant would do. Perhaps an Orange or Hohenzollern.

The Netherlands and the House of Orange would be a good ally for Scotland to have, as a fellow protestant nation with (relative) geographic proximity and great trade connections, it would serve as a handy replacement for the Auld Alliance if it came down to it.

The Hohenzollern's weren't all that powerful in this era, in fact if Scotland looked further east than the Dutch then a power like Denmark or Sweden would be better than one of the Germanic states of the HRE.
 
The Netherlands and the House of Orange would be a good ally for Scotland to have, as a fellow protestant nation with (relative) geographic proximity and great trade connections, it would serve as a handy replacement for the Auld Alliance if it came down to it.

The Hohenzollern's weren't all that powerful in this era, in fact if Scotland looked further east than the Dutch then a power like Denmark or Sweden would be better than one of the Germanic states of the HRE.
On the other hand, the Prince of Orange is not yet head of a powerful state, but a leader of a rebellion (and one that is not necessarily in the greatest of shape or likely to form an independent nation at the time of her betrothal). James VI and I married in 1589, assuming similar dates (questionable, I know), the House of Orange would seem a dangerous choice.

Probably a German, assuming someone like Bosworth doesn't try to use her hand as a power grab.
 
Top