Jews without the Holocaust

That wqould probbly be better for nazis, with no one big murder that would cause the jews to finally realise that europe hates them, they will slowwly be killed in pogroms or become christians to avoid said pogroms.
 
That wqould probbly be better for nazis, with no one big murder that would cause the jews to finally realise that europe hates them, they will slowwly be killed in pogroms or become christians to avoid said pogroms.

Why on Earth should we assume so? The Soviets, even though their officialdom became anti-semitic again after the war, never reverted to pogroms, and Russia was earlier in the century their main exponant. Maybe, just maybe, a world without the Holocaust would be a little nearer to what orwell called"that hated, dreaded thing, a world of free and equal human beings"?
 

Don Grey

Banned
Well in my opinion with out the holocaust there wouldnt be a protected victims statis they have now. No israel. Anti semitism is a casual affaire in europe and america for most of history. Till modern liberalism sets in.Till this day anti semitism will be somewhat normal if whispered among close friends west.But publicly it would be no-no.

Among the muslim pop however anti-semitism would be at a very minimul state. If some of ottoman culture rubbed of on the arabs then like the otto's they might consider them "people of the book" and leave them alone. Keep in mind im not preaching a utopic exsistence for the jews in arab lands just that i think they would be treated better then some of the parts in europe.
 
Originally Posted by I Blame Communism
Urgh. Typical of the reflexive anti-Polonism on this site.
:rolleyes: Now you're starting to sound like Hurgan or one of our (thankfully) long-gone Pole-trolls. :rolleyes:

No anti-Polonism, just some stating of the fact that Poland was admittedly not one of the most Jew-friendly parts of Europe.

Incidentally, if the Holocaust never happened, there almost certainly would not be an Israel as we know it. The original poster did not provide a specific POD, merely indicated a world without a Holocaust, so the exact scenario is difficult to describe. However, it is precisely because of the attempt to exterminate European Jewry that support for the Zionist project became nearly unanimous among Jews, and that sympathy for the Jews was enough to support said endeavor. Consider the following:


  1. Pre-WW2, Zionism had very limited appeal. Orthodox Jews were almost unanimously opposed on religious grounds. (The "three oaths" of the Talmud. They forbid the establishment of a "Jewish state" or mass return to Palestine.) Jews must not return to the Promised Land until lead there by their Messiah. To this day, ultra-Orthodox Jews (Hasids and other Haredi sects, Hardal excepted) oppose Zionism on such grounds. Among the Orthodox, only minor factions of "centrist-Orthodoxy" ancestral to Modern Orthodox and Dati Leumi denominations had any interest in Zionism pre-WW2. Likewise, the more liberal Jews, including Reform Judaism were apathetic, disinterested, or even opposed on the grounds that Jewish nationalism interfered with assimilation. The Holocaust changed all that. Secular and Reform Jews felt the need for a safe haven, and all but the most ultra-Orthodox threw their support behind Israel.
  2. Among many of the more liberalized Jews: secular Jews, Conservative-Reconstructionist-Reform Jews; many would move right-ward during the Cold War (and again after 9/11), at least on geopolitical issues even if the such "lefty-Jews" retained liberal stances on cultural, religious, and social issues. How this relates to the POD, I'm not sure, but something to consider.

Not to mention, without Hitler, there were plenty of authoritarian right-wing regimes all over Europe, some of whom were anti-Semitic. If the POD is shortly before WW2, even if the Nazis never take over, some Nazi-lite regime might start up elsewhere. There may be no Holocaust as such, but other nations might have launched pogroms (especially in connecting Jews to Communism). As others mentioned, Pilsudski's Poland is one such country. Not to mention, Greece fell under a Fascist regime lead by Ioannis Metaxas, who IOTL was a Nazi-admirer/sympathizer. There is the dire possibility that without a Holocaust, minor pogroms might have been launched in Yugoslavia, Bulgaria or Romania, or against Ashkenazic Jews in Poland, or against Sephardi-Romaniote Jews in Greece. Fortunately, these would not likely be on the scale of the Holocaust.

Bottom line, without the OTL Holocaust, the State of Israel would probably suffer from a dearth of the support needed for it to exist.
 
If you think you can draw moral equivalency between pogroms and quotas for Jews, well, that's a bit ridiculous.

If multi-ethnic, multi-cultural America would suffer through WW2 front going through it`s territory twice, turning all these peaceful suburbias into ruins and killing millions of civilians on it`s way, triggering banditry, and eventually creating dehumansised suciety that do not know what social stability from few years ago was, ending all of that by imposing alien totalitarian regime - would you still think that your post wasn`t "well thought out*"?:rolleyes:

Quotas of Jews in Universities was only anti-semitic law in interwar Poland, and similar legislature existed in freaking United States! You can`t seriosly compare pre-war and post-war Poland.


*to put it extremely mildly
 
Last edited:
:rolleyes: Now you're starting to sound like Hurgan or one of our (thankfully) long-gone Pole-trolls. :rolleyes:

Meet IBC: British jingo, Scottish chauvinist, Bolshevik, White Guard, Ukrainian nationalist, Catholic apologist, Irish nationalist, Roundhead, Bonapartiste, Jacobin, inveterate Germanophobe, Reich propagandist, and now, hot off the press, Pole troll!

Truly, the identity of this mysterious masked ventriloquist is impenetrable. Could it be possible that his loyalty lies with objective fact and common decency rather than some ideological pigeon-hole?

Of course not. :rolleyes:

There are in the archives of this illustrious forum pages of me clashing my sabre with Hurgan himself, carefully deconstructing his arguments and being accused of crypto-Nazism on one occasion. I was accurately described as "following Hurgan about like a nemesis".

Why do I bother? Nobody ever accuses bloody Hitler of being a Zionist, but look at me.

No anti-Polonism, just some stating of the fact that Poland was admittedly not one of the most Jew-friendly parts of Europe.

Are you really unable to detect the difference between these remarks?:

"Poland was not one of the most Jew-friendly places in Europe."

"Pogroms were Poland's National sport until they Chased/Killed off almost all of the Jews in the country."

Shall I help? One of them is true, whereas the other is a lie or misconception.

That you find it necessary to defend an opinion entirely different from your own as well as incorrect, and in doing so accuse me of being my own erstwhile nemesis, pretty much justifies my choice of the word "reflexive". IBC is pro-Poland. Hence he is anti-Germany, anti-Russia, anti-Jew, and anti-common decency.

So, by order of the Supreme Soviet!...

Oh, drat, I can't say that any more.

By order of the Crown Hetman, everyone is required to read this.
 
The post-WWII stuff I remember reading about sounded a bit worse than "I'm a poor refugee and I won't have a house at all if I don't leave the house that belonged to a Jewish man with a number on his arm who now wants it back."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

This is old-school blood libel here.

And Rabbi Foxman, head of the ADL, remembers hiding in the basement on Good Friday to avoid being attacked by Catholics stirred up about the Crucifixion and looking for Jews to blame. This was before the Holocaust.

Perhaps Nazi Germans on the borders, do that no?
 

Xanth

Banned
. There may be no Holocaust as such, but other nations might have launched pogroms (especially in connecting Jews to Communism). As others mentioned, Pilsudski's Poland is one such country.

Were I a Polish Jew, I would say:My friend, Marhsal Pilsudski's group, his faithful followers, are your last hope of finding honest allies. I wander all over the world, from counry to country, looking for allies for our cause. And I can tell you that I do not see allies more suitable and more realistic than this group of Pilsudski's followers(...) And there is no doubt that Pilsudski's followers, those people who now stand at the head of the Polish republic, want to set up a plan for a just solution to the question of the Jews of Poland against the rantings of anti-Semitism demagogues.


Ze'ev Jabotinsky-founder of Jewish Self-Defense in Odessa, Jewish Legion and founder of Irgun.

Quotas of Jews in Universities was only anti-semitic law in interwar Poland
Had Ormanians, or Greeks(who also lived in Poland) made up 1/3 or so students, law regarding them would also be made-the Polish government after century of foreign occupation was trying to create a Polish middle and enlarge numbers of Poles with higher education. While of course their were anti-semitic sentiments associated with this, there is no doubt that in situation where other minority would be in the same situation, similiar laws would be made. Such were the times then.
 
Perhaps Nazi Germans on the borders, do that no?

What?

Are you saying that Nazism caused "deicide"-induced violence (or at least the threat thereof) in Poland BEFORE the war?

The Nazis didn't hate the Jews because they allegedly "killed Jesus," they hated the Jews because they thought they were an evil race undermining Germany, controlling the banks, whatver.
 
Ze'ev Jabotinsky-founder of Jewish Self-Defense in Odessa, Jewish Legion and founder of Irgun.

That is militant Zionist with a belief that the Jews leaving eastern Europe is necessary, desirable, and probably inevitable. It's not extraordinary to suggest that the physical condition of Polish jews wasn't as big a concern with him as the advancement of the Zionist cause.

And since when did the policies of a government ever reflect the attitudes of a whole citizenry?

Random pogroms are Polanophobic claptrap, but it's silly to deny that this was a society with a major problem of anti-semitism. I'm not saying you're doing that, but that's rather how it comes across.

Had Ormanians, or Greeks(who also lived in Poland) made up 1/3 or so students, law regarding them would also be made-the Polish government after century of foreign occupation was trying to create a Polish middle and enlarge numbers of Poles with higher education. While of course their were anti-semitic sentiments associated with this, there is no doubt that in situation where other minority would be in the same situation, similiar laws would be made. Such were the times then.

So Tsarist Russian rule led to an unfair and disproportionate advancement of the Jews? That's silly.
 
What?

Are you saying that Nazism caused "deicide"-induced violence (or at least the threat thereof) in Poland BEFORE the war?

The Nazis didn't hate the Jews because they allegedly "killed Jesus," they hated the Jews because they thought they were an evil race undermining Germany, controlling the banks, whatver.

So now you are suggesting that Poles gained antisemitism in their DNA because of Catholicism? How would you explain Jewish emigration from Germany into Catholic Poland in XVI-XVIII centuries then, Sherlock?
 

Xanth

Banned
So Tsarist Russian rule led to an unfair and disproportionate advancement of the Jews? That's silly.
Poland was partitioned under Germany and Austra as well.
I don't know what led to disproportionate distribution of Jews in higher studies on Polish territories though. Maybe the enforced settlement of Jewish population into Congress Poland by Russian Empire after 1864 combined with anti-Polish repressions and restrictions on Polish education? Or mainly agricultural character of Polish society? Anyway this disproportion existed, and certainly the century of foreign occupation didn't provide opportunities for Polish education.
 
Last edited:

Valdemar II

Banned
Poland was partitioned under Germany and Austra as well.
I don't know what led to disproportionate distribution of Jews in higher studies on Polish territories though. Maybe the enforced settlement of Jewish population into Congress Poland by Russian Empire after 1864 combined with anti-Polish repressions and restrictions on Polish education? Or mainly agricultural character of Polish society? Anyway this disproportion existed, and certainly the century of foreign occupation didn't provide opportunities for Polish education.

Or we could maybe look at the simple fact that Jews was a urban mechant minority with high literacy rates and where status to a large degree came from education, while Poles, Belarussian and Ruthenians was mostly rural and the majority was first serf and later rural workers, where status to large degree came from owning property.
 

Xanth

Banned
Or we could maybe look at the simple fact that Jews was a urban mechant minority with high literacy rates and where status to a large degree came from education, while Poles, Belarussian and Ruthenians was mostly rural and the majority was first serf and later rural workers, where status to large degree came from owning property.

Of course there is also the fact that without Pale of Settlement and forced settlement of Jews within Poland by Russian Empire the Jewish minority would be smaller. And Polish education would be in far different condition if not for Partitions and all the restrictions regarding Poles.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Of course there is also the fact that without Pale of Settlement and forced settlement of Jews within Poland by Russian Empire the Jewish minority would be smaller. And Polish education would be in far different condition if not for Partitions and all the restrictions regarding Poles.

Most Jews lived in the area already before Russian conquest if you look at the Pale of Settlement, it follow more or less the borders of medieval Poland-Lithuania and it does that for good reasons, the vast majority of Jews already lived there before the Russian conquest. The biggest difference without the Pale of Settlement are that Moscow, Riga and St. Petersburg would have large Jewish minorities, the Jews prefered urban lifestyle and the Pale of Settlement was the most urbanised area of Russia, and if the Jews mopved out they wouldn't be replaced by Poles, they would have been replaced by Germans the other large mechant minority of East Europe.
 
Suuuure, you're not a troll. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's only been two years without a single kick. Skating on thin ice, me. ;) Actually, I'm a reasonably established member who knows he's prone to snappishness, abrasiveness, and sarcasm that can unintentionally turn offensive or opaque but who does his level best to be impartial and friendly.

What I was saying there was that, given that Hurgan had correctly been called my "nemesis", it was a bit rich to accuse me of being his disciple. Being exasperated, I made the humerously exaggerated comparison to Hitler: he went around damning the Jews black and blue, and nobody ever calls him their disciple! It's so unfair! :p

I'm pretty sure that comparing oneself to Herr Hitler comes under "sarcastic joke" rather than "Godwin's Law".
 
Last edited:
Don't forget about Argentina. At this time Argentina was one of the main destinations for Jews .

...I can see many more coming. Specially Russian and Polish Jews

Yes! Few know that between 1919 and 1938, a large percentage of immigrants in Argentina came from Poland, and a great deal of them (if not the majority) were Jewish.

Russian Jewish might also had come, but it wouldn't have been easy for them to emigrate...

Without nazism, however, there'd be fewer German Jews, as probably they'd find no need to emigrate here. On the contrary, if there's nazism, but somehow the holocaust is averted, the number of German jews might increase, as some of those German Jews who died in the Holocaust may emigrate here.

Without Israel (assuming no Holocaust=No Israel), our Jewish community would be larger, not only because more Jews will come, but also because no Argentinian jews would "return" to Israel in the 50ies and 60ies, or during the dicatorship (1976-1983) or after the economic crisis of 2001 (assuming those last two events exist in some form or another, of course).

By present day, we might have had more than 500.000 Jews instead of less than 300.000 as nowadays.

...as well as being seen as a possibility for the Jewish State by Theodor Herzl.

Personally I don't see a Jewish State in Argentina, .

Nor do I, specially not with a Pod in the XXth century
 
Last edited:
So now you are suggesting that Poles gained antisemitism in their DNA because of Catholicism? How would you explain Jewish emigration from Germany into Catholic Poland in XVI-XVIII centuries then, Sherlock?

I was answering Van's claim that Polish anti-Semitism was caused by Nazi Germany when its ideological basis is rather different.
 
Top