Jews in this ATL....?

hey, all. ive been pondering one aspect of my ATL. in the ATL, the area of OTL germany is annexed by france many years after conquest in the napoleonic wars, and the OTL british middle east are french colonies and later become independent like IOTL. (id prefer to keep how france got that way out of this discussion as its not my primary concern atm) also, WWI never becomes a world war and only involves austria and turkey vs. the balkan countries and russia late in the war (though its still brutal and on a large scale), and WWII never comes about at all.

my pondering is this: what do you all think would be the situation of jewish communities in both europe and the palestine region? ive been thinking about this particcular scenario for a while, and the main thing ive wondered about is if there would still be ghettos in europe where jews are forced to live by the 2032, or if there would be radical zionist movements (as i understand it, an independent israel was on the way no matter what, but its creation was jumpstarted because of the holocaust IOTL) as well as regular human rights protests and whatnot that would result in the dissolution of ghettos and the creation of a zionist state in or around israel (or possibly movements like that in palestine), and also if there would be ghettos similar to to those in europe elsewhere in the world, say, in america?


i'd also like to emphasize that i am NOT trying to push a pro-jewish OR an anti-semitic agenda; i just want to develop this part of my ATL and determine what is most likely in the event of no independent germany and no holocaust
 
German nationalism is going to rear its ugly head. France can't hold on to Germany especially if the Germans become the majority.
 
id prefer to stick to the actual subject, as ive already had discussions in the past over why france cant hold onto germany and whatnot. im not focusing on that right now.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
hey, all. ive been pondering one aspect of my ATL. in the ATL, the area of OTL germany is annexed by france many years after conquest in the napoleonic wars, and the OTL british middle east are french colonies and later become independent like IOTL. (id prefer to keep how france got that way out of this discussion as its not my primary concern atm) also, WWI never becomes a world war and only involves austria and turkey vs. the balkan countries and russia late in the war (though its still brutal and on a large scale), and WWII never comes about at all.

my pondering is this: what do you all think would be the situation of jewish communities in both europe and the palestine region? ive been thinking about this particcular scenario for a while, and the main thing ive wondered about is if there would still be ghettos in europe where jews are forced to live by the 2032, or if there would be radical zionist movements (as i understand it, an independent israel was on the way no matter what, but its creation was jumpstarted because of the holocaust IOTL) as well as regular human rights protests and whatnot that would result in the dissolution of ghettos and the creation of a zionist state in or around israel (or possibly movements like that in palestine), and also if there would be ghettos similar to to those in europe elsewhere in the world, say, in america?
Well, the first thing to consider is the massive difference between Western and Eastern Jewry.

Western Jewry tended to be more assimilated (and preoccupied with assimilation), primarily urban, better off economically, and more modernistic.

Eastern Jewry tended to be very, very segregated culturally both because they weren't allowed to assimilate nor did they want to. Jews in the East also lived in cities but the majority lived in shtetls out in the countryside. Eastern Jews also tended to be poorer than their Western cousins. This had a lot to due with more institutionalized anti-Semitism and the fact that Jews primarily lived in small villages. I'm not entirely sure, but I think that they weren't allowed to own land in various countries, or even farm for that matter, but I could be mistaken. Eastern Jews were often far, far more traditionalist than the Western ones; fedoras, yarmulkes, peyes, beards, tzitzoyt, the whole nine yards. Also, almost all of them spoke Yiddish, while Western Jews spoke the vernacular of whatever country they lived in.

Eastern and Western Jewry also didn't get along very well. Western Jews saw those of the East as backwards, superstitious, bigoted hicks. Eastern Jews saw their Western cousins as apostates who abandoned their heritage and faith, didn't care at all about God or His commandments, and were an all around bunch of city slicker sell outs.

It also deserves mentioning that there were far more Eastern Jews than Western Jews when it comes down to raw numbers.

Zionism is where they tended to clash the most. Western Jewry was kind of weird when it came to Zionism. Many wanted nothing to do with it; establishing a Jewish state just highlighted the fact that they were Jews and would play into accusations of dual loyalty to countries and societies they had spent so long trying to become a part of. This sentiment actually existed in a lot of Jewish communities even after the establishment of the State of Israel. These feelings rapidly faded over time and pretty much disappeared by the '60s, but a lot of the old timers (like my Grandpa and many in his community, for example) were always uncomfortable about it, usually because their generation had struggled so hard to fit in and be accepted by American society. It was the Baby Boomers that really led the way on the "yay Israel!" front.

Other Western Jews got caught up in the whole Romantic Nationalism thing and sought to establish a Jewish state in Palestine so that they could have a country of their own and have their own ethno-nationalist renaissance based around their Hebraic heritage. They didn't seem to consider how the Arabs might feel about this....

Eastern Jews were by and large opposed to Zionism. They believed that they would return to the Holy Land when Messiah came and God returned it to them. Anything otherwise was blasphemous (many Orthodox communities still believe this).

The Eastern Jewish delegates in the Zionist congresses were often "all-or-nothing" types. If the Jews were going to have a homeland, it would be Palestine. Not Uganda or some other backwater that the Western delegates were willing to settle for (they called it "a steppingstone to the Holy Land"), but Palestine. Period.

Now that we've got that out of the way, things depend on your TL. If Napoleon still liberates the Jews as he did IOTL, then the various Western ghettos will more or fade away. And by "ghetto" I mean the "forced to live here" kind, not the "this is my part of town" kind.

Eastern Jewry is trickier. The West was always pretty pissed at the Tsar for allowing pogroms and oppressing the shit out of Russia's Jews, but they weren't willing to really risk anything over it. It was one of those "Hey, cut that out, you jerk!" things rather than the "Nobody trade with these dickbag racists" we saw with Apartheid South Africa.

By 2032 I'm sure this will all have changed to one degree or another. No WWII and a WWI that doesn't wreck Russia or Austria-Hungary means untold butterflies, especially for Eastern Jewry.

Without the Holocaust we can probably expect the nasty sort of anti-Semitism to linger, but "polite" anti-Semitism will last a lot longer. I've always been leery about the whole "inevitability of a Zionist state" thing, but Leo and Abdul are the experts there, so you ought to ask them.

That's all I got for now. Hope it helps :)

i'd also like to emphasize that i am NOT trying to push a pro-jewish OR an anti-semitic agenda; i just want to develop this part of my ATL and determine what is most likely in the event of no independent germany and no holocaust
Don't worry, you don't come across as pushing any sort of biased agenda :)
 
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thanks for all of that, especially that last part :)

lessee....so maybe continued ghettos but less oppression in eastern europe and russia? what do you think about jewish populations in the balkan states, which are pretty much allied to russia ITTL? d'you think russia's pogroms would extend to the balkans, or to turkey? (which becomes a pro-russian puppet state ITTL)

what im personally seeing now is that jewish communities in western countries are more or less unchanged while theyre kept segregated in eastern countries at least for a few more decades, and then maybe pro-jewish reform movements break out in the 80s (being analogous to the reforms made to apartheid IOTL) that by the 21st century results in anti-semitic sentiments in the east, but full rights (im imagining this as being like how some minorities in america are still hated unconditionally by some white individuals and groups even though they are guaranteed full rights and these are enforced by the government)
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
lessee....so maybe continued ghettos but less oppression in eastern europe and russia?
Eastern Jews didn't live in ghettos. They could live in towns and cities and shtetls, but after the May Laws of 1882 they couldn't live outside of the towns or boroughs where they already were. Shtetls that preexisted these laws were allowed to remain, but Jews couldn't leave to go live in the cities and vice versa. I also believe that it will take a very, very long time to reverse the May Laws and subsequent discriminatory legislation. Russia was always obstinate about that. Remember, this is the same country whose secret police force wrote and disseminated the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

what do you think about jewish populations in the balkan states, which are pretty much allied to russia ITTL? d'you think russia's pogroms would extend to the balkans, or to turkey? (which becomes a pro-russian puppet state ITTL)
Very doubtful. The Jews have had a very, very positive history in Yugoslavia and Turkey. They got along very well with their neighbors. I doubt pogroms will spread there; the furthest they'll go is Romania as per OTL. The simple fact of the matter was that, unlike in Eastern Europe, Jews in the Balkans and Turkey were rarely if ever used as scapegoats and had the shit beaten out of them. Even today what few Jews remain have it pretty well socially in the former Yugoslav republics and in Turkey.
what im personally seeing now is that jewish communities in western countries are more or less unchanged while theyre kept segregated in eastern countries at least for a few more decades, and then maybe pro-jewish reform movements break out in the 80s (being analogous to the reforms made to apartheid IOTL)
This is all really complicated since we don't know how the 20th Century turns out without WWI and WWII. The Tsars and their government are going to be fighting Jewish equality at every step. And you can't really do much to strong-arm Russia. South Africa could be embargoed because they really didn't have a huge impact on the world's economy. The European nations are going to have a lot of capital and interest sunk into Russia. They can't afford to just pull out to put pressure on St. Petersburg over a bunch of Jews.
that by the 21st century results in anti-semitic sentiments in the east, but full rights (im imagining this as being like how some minorities in america are still hated unconditionally by some white individuals and groups even though they are guaranteed full rights and these are enforced by the government)
These anti-Semitic sentiments towards Jews has existed in Eastern Europe for centuries, continues to this day, and shows no signs of going away anytime soon.
 
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