Jewish Phoenicia

The challenge is a Phoenicia that adopts as much Hebrew religion and culture as possible, but still goes on or continues to trade and colonize.
 
As is quite typical in this sort of thread, this isn't too hard, but the end product won't look anything like OTL Judaism and almost certainly won't be called that either.

It's not clear how monotheistic the Hebrews would actually have been when they first encountered the Phoenicians, or whether they would simply have been raising one Canaanite god (El) among all the others. So in theory, having the Phoenicians also start increasingly venerating El above all other gods should be pretty simple (though they did tend to prefer Hadad, but the Jewish god has aspects of both, so...)

The problem is that Judaism - or perhaps a better named would be Hebrewish or Israelism at this point - as a religion was very closely tied in with a small, agricultural, highly centralized state centered on the region between the Jordan and the Sea. The Bible includes large tracts on land allotments and how to farm. The Jubilee in theory prevents the accumulation of too much wealth in any single family's hands as property is supposed to revert to its "Biblically ordained" owners every 50 years (yes, there are easy ways around this, but the idea is there). There are holidays that require everyone make annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem, there is an ordained priest caste funded by tithes...

While I have absolutely no doubt that the Phoenicians could adopt something that both they and the Hebrews initially agree is the same religion, and that the Hebrews would probably tend to follow the Phoenicians' lead if they become rich and powerful, it seems to me that either the religion will be about as Jewish as modern Christianity, or that the Phoenicians would be too shackled by it to be the OTL sailors, traders, and colonizers that we know and love.

And it probably wouldn't be called "Judaism", as that name gets during the Hellenic period.
 
There's a very high probability that the Israelites were already in a mutually beneficial partnership with the Phoenicians. First as a united kingdom under David and Solomon, and later as the breakaway kingdom of Israel-Samaria. Indeed, the story of Elijah and Jezebel in the Book of Kings hints that friendly relations between Israel-Samaria and the Phoenician city states were still strong long after the united kingdom had ceased to exist.

As for the notion of the Phoenicians adopting the Mosaic Faith, well... if it didn't happen during the reigns of David and Solomon it was even less likely to after Israel-Samaria broke away. Given the somewhat ambiguous relationship of the Ten Tribes with the Davidic State and the Jewish religion.

In fact, it's more likely that the Northerners adopted Phoenician cults; and it's pretty much hinted that that is indeed the case in the books of the Prophets that pertain to Israel-Samaria (Hosea, Amos and any parts of Kings and Chronicles post Solomon that deal with I-S).
 
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GdwnsnHo

Banned
I think the most plausible way is for the Israelites to try and create a loose federation with the Phoenician city states.

The Phoenician city states themselves weren't particularly tightly bound (AFAIK) so this would be new, but having that strong connection and interaction would help spread the faith.

Plus, I do like the idea of a Phoenician League in the same manner as the League of Corinth. Votes determined by number of troops - on land or sea.

Plus, it create an actual concept of Phoenicia - against from my understanding, they were always independent city states, rather than any single polity.

I think this Judea-Phoencian Federation could lead to an interesting Levant and Mediterranean.
 
As is quite typical in this sort of thread, this isn't too hard, but the end product won't look anything like OTL Judaism and almost certainly won't be called that either.

It's not clear how monotheistic the Hebrews would actually have been when they first encountered the Phoenicians, or whether they would simply have been raising one Canaanite god (El) among all the others. So in theory, having the Phoenicians also start increasingly venerating El above all other gods should be pretty simple (though they did tend to prefer Hadad, but the Jewish god has aspects of both, so...)

The problem is that Judaism - or perhaps a better named would be Hebrewish or Israelism at this point - as a religion was very closely tied in with a small, agricultural, highly centralized state centered on the region between the Jordan and the Sea. The Bible includes large tracts on land allotments and how to farm. The Jubilee in theory prevents the accumulation of too much wealth in any single family's hands as property is supposed to revert to its "Biblically ordained" owners every 50 years (yes, there are easy ways around this, but the idea is there). There are holidays that require everyone make annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem, there is an ordained priest caste funded by tithes...

While I have absolutely no doubt that the Phoenicians could adopt something that both they and the Hebrews initially agree is the same religion, and that the Hebrews would probably tend to follow the Phoenicians' lead if they become rich and powerful, it seems to me that either the religion will be about as Jewish as modern Christianity, or that the Phoenicians would be too shackled by it to be the OTL sailors, traders, and colonizers that we know and love.

And it probably wouldn't be called "Judaism", as that name gets during the Hellenic period.

Roughly this.
Of course, there is room to believe that early Judaism started out as one of many local variations of a Canaanite religious, cultural and linguistic continuum which did actually include the "Phoenicians" (who actually called themselves Canaanites,or Tyrians, or Sidonians; "Phoenician" is a Greek exonym, possibly derived from an Egyptian word; but in any case, the peoples that the modern Western historical tradition singles out as "Phoenicians" appear to display little if any awareness of such shared identity).
It could be said, with some exaggeration, that Judaism is the only surviving form (highly transformed) of the general Canaanite religious tradition that existed in the middle Iron Age.
Of course, that tradition as it is testified by the Old Testament is actually a synthesis from a slightly later period, although it incorporates a lot of texts, beliefs and practices that go many centuries earlier.
I would say that Phoenicia was "Jewish" (better to say the reverse: Judea was "Phoenician") up the Assyrian conquest, in the sense that the cultural practices and traditions, including the general outline of religious life, was pretty much similar in Tyre and Jerusalem; while the Phoenician societies never developed actual monotheism, they the same fertile ground to do that manifested in Jerusalem.
Actual monotheism appears to have consolidated in Judaea roughly during the Assyrian-Chaldaean interregnum, and further established during the Babylonian Exile in which, unlike other Canaanite groups, Jews managed (were allowed to) preserve most of their cultural practices related to cult and, critically, their ethnic identity (in relation to said practices).
There are, as Minchandre correctly notes, some critical differences in the economy of the coastal and interior/hill Canaanites; but had the Tyrian scribal and priestly elite been able to preserve the ethnic, cultual and political cohesion and continuity (of sorts) that the Jerusalem elite managed to have, you could possibly have a "Baalite" monotheistic, or at least monolatric, religion (not guaranteed of course, but again, the basics were probbaly there).
 
Is there anyway phoenicia could remain apart of the jewish kingdoms long enough for it to stick when all of them are dominated by foreign powers?
 
Is there anyway phoenicia could remain apart of the jewish kingdoms long enough for it to stick when all of them are dominated by foreign powers?

I am not sure of what this question means, but it is theoretically possible for at least some Phoenician city-states to preserve their independence while the Jewish polities to their south do not.
However, this is not likely as the same commercial importance and wealth of these cities made them tempting targets, if compared with the relative backwater that was Jerusalem.
In a sense, Jewish identity owes its survival to the limited cultural, economic, strategic etc. relevance of the Jewish states, particularly Judea.
 
I am not sure of what this question means, but it is theoretically possible for at least some Phoenician city-states to preserve their independence while the Jewish polities to their south do not.
However, this is not likely as the same commercial importance and wealth of these cities made them tempting targets, if compared with the relative backwater that was Jerusalem.
In a sense, Jewish identity owes its survival to the limited cultural, economic, strategic etc. relevance of the Jewish states, particularly Judea.

I meant still incorporated with the jewish polities, even under the rule of outsiders.
 
I meant still incorporated with the jewish polities, even under the rule of outsiders.

Well, both were ruled by the same groups of outsiders at times from even before there was such a thing as an identifiable Jewish people. So that would be possible. But it will not make the Phoenicians more "Jewish" in terms of religion, nor politically.
I you mean, mantaining the Canaanite continuum, I guess it is possible. Might be as easy as killing Sargon II the of Assyria at the battle of Kishtan. Not sure if could get a recognizable Jewish religion with this POD though, most of the Bible as we have was written down after that, and the context of th Assyrian threat loomed pretty large to early redactors.
Having Phoenicians and Jews to unify politically is probably very hard, the area had a very strong tradition of smallish "city-states" that fiercely detested each other. Perhaps a dynastic union between Israel and Tyre, maybe also including Sidon, wich had some periods of political connection with Tyre historically, is feasible. Jerusalem and the other Phoenician cities wouldbe left out though, and would try their utmost to defeat and destabilize this union.
 
The marriage of Ahab and Jezebel in Kings was a union of Israel (the secessionist northern kingdom) and a Phoenician city state (I forget which one).

Assuming you take the veracity of that chapter as a given.
 
The marriage of Ahab and Jezebel in Kings was a union of Israel (the secessionist northern kingdom) and a Phoenician city state (I forget which one).

Assuming you take the veracity of that chapter as a given.

Tyre, IIRC.
To my knowledge, it did not result in a political union at any point, but the possibility was there, and that was, in my understanding, the point of the marriage. AFAIK, the marriage seems to be considered historical even by specialists who are known for a very critical approach to Biblical material. It certainly fits with the general tune of what is known from epigraphic contemporary sources.
 
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