Jewish integration in Europe?

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Deleted member 1487

Is it possible for Jews to be integrated into European society during the 20th century instead of OTL? The Judenzahlung during world war 1 was considered a turning point for many German Jews, as it still demonstrated that despite their sacrifices to the nation, they were still discriminated against by the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenzählung
Without measures like this, and the later holocaust, would Jews come to see themselves and European first, Jews second? What steps would this end require?
 

ninebucks

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Erm? This wouldn't require any steps, as it pretty much accurately portrays how Jews saw themselves for hundreds of years before the Holocaust...
 

Deleted member 1487

Then why did Zionism develop in the 1890?
Edit:
beyond that, what would it take for the Europeans as a whole to accept Jews? The Dreyfus affair, Judenzahlung, and general anti-semitism demonstrated that there were still hurdles to be overcome in the matter of widespread integration of Jews into society. The trend was heading toward it, but it still had not happened even by the 30's-40's. But would the lack of world wars be enough to finally allow this to occur?
 
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Then why did Zionism develop in the 1890?
Edit:
beyond that, what would it take for the Europeans as a whole to accept Jews? The Dreyfus affair, Judenzahlung, and general anti-semitism demonstrated that there were still hurdles to be overcome in the matter of widespread integration of Jews into society. The trend was heading toward it, but it still had not happened even by the 30's-40's. But would the lack of world wars be enough to finally allow this to occur?

Zionism developed when it became very clear that Europe would not accept Jews as national citizens. Also do note that it was very strongly opposed by contemporary Socialist groups, and that large numbers of Jews were not Zionists.

It's also very difficult to completely integrate Jews into Europe. The very events you mention demonstrate that even in the most modern and liberal nations, Jews were still actively or passively discriminated against. I actually think that a lack of world wars would only exacerbate the problem - wars bring nations together, and the desegregation of the US military for example is arguably a direct response to the sacrifices of black soldiers during WWII.

A lot of the problem with Jews is that while many Jews did want to assimilate, a small (or not so small) but vocal minority actively resisted assimilation, thus casting doubt on the true intention of assimilationists. Getting rid of this group will be nigh-impossible, and trying to teach people the distinction between two different branches of the same group has historically failed really badly.
 
It's unlikely there's ever going to be integration to the point that Jewishness genuinely doesn't matter. But the development before 1930 was pointing that way. Antisemitism had been around for a long time before and got its major boost because of the dislocation and rabid nationalism that followed WWI. Even if that happens it doesn't mean the development continues. The USA had a nasty surge of racism in the late 19th century, but that didn't lead to a black Holocaust. If Western Europe sees the evils of antisemitism in Eastern Europe in the 1920s as it had in the 1890s, there's a good chance the reaction could be more of the same - revulsion, anger, indignation and a rising association of domestic bigots with these thugs. You'd see genuine efforts to create full equality and integration (how resistant some Jews themselves would be to integration efforts would remain to be seen - the embrace of the ethnic national state is tight and secure, but not necessarily pleasant).
 
Then why did Zionism develop in the 1890?

Why did they start Dominionism if Christians were so well integrated in 1980s America? It's a utopian vision that is best understood in the twin contexts of ethnic nationalism and socialism. Early leading proponents considered resettling Jews from Russia, not Western Europe, because they figured these had more reason to go. Most western Zionists were readier to donate to the cause than to actually emigrate.
 
Well, the Jews that were accepted, mainly in the Netherlands and Germany, (though we all know how that ended for them, in both countries) identified themselves primarily as Dutch/German, not as Jews. It did work, in some places more than others, for a while. Especially the Netherlands, I might add. Jews were quite integrated with the rest of society (due to laws enacted by King Louis back in the early 1800s), and thus were accepted as part of society by the overwhelming majority of Dutchmen, untill, ofcourse, the Nazis invaded. (Not that the Dutch did really that much to stop the persecution of the Jews, even with their limited means)

It would've possible, ofcourse, but wouldn't exactly lead to a revival of Judaism, with the remaining Jews becoming more and more secular and less 'Jewish by self-identification'.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Yes, without those silly murderers called the Nazis, the Jews would pretty much have become integrated in Western Europe and Germany.
In Eastern and Central Europe however, well it's different. Would be slower and all wouldn't integrate, and anti- semitism would probably still exist there.
 
Italian Jews were likewise very much integrated, particularly in Venice and industry/banking. Even the majority of Fascism wasn't antisemitic at first and one of its principle authors was Mussolini's Jewish mistress Margethita Sarfatti.

All that changed only in 1938 at the behest of Hitler and the Jews themselves were never subjected to concentration camps until the Nazis took over in 43.
 
IMHO, I think we need a POD well before the 19th century, try the 400s-800s. While Jews themselves chose to be insular societies it was to some degree a result of being forced into that situation by charges of Blood rituals and the like that first started cropping up in Europe around the time listed above. Jews were kept from certain occupations and forced into others. One poster listed Jews as being well integrated into the Venetian banking indiustry, because for centuries they were the only ones allowed to loan money. While in Eastern Europe they were often the only people who weren't nobles who could read,write and do arthimetic so naturally they became tax collectors and estate managers (quite canny on the part of the nobles actually, you get to blame the jews for the rates you set and taxes you pay them to collect). Yes by the late 19th early 20th Jews were integrating into society rather well, but there was still many doors closed to them, that were IMHO opened specifically because of Holocaust guilt. I don't think that it depends upon a lack of World Wars but on the waning influence of the Church and the strength of anti-religion/christianity philosophies.

What I am trying to say is that, I just don't think that the rising middle classes of Western Europe were ready to accept Jews at that stage (say 1870s to 1940s). It was until the Post WW2 era that Jews really found a place and that was mainly out of guilt for not acting. I don't think that Europeans (no offense meant, Americans are just as if not more guilty of this, but we are talking about Europe and not America) will all of a sudden stop being Anti-semitic. I think that the ideology will die but in a world without WW1 or WW2 Eugenics and the surrounding racial theories are NOT discredited dribble but very much credible. So while I think the educated classes would come to there sense I think that the narrow minded will still be able to draw on Eugenics as credible thought and stir up the masses.
 
It would've possible, ofcourse, but wouldn't exactly lead to a revival of Judaism, with the remaining Jews becoming more and more secular and less 'Jewish by self-identification'.

Hrmm. And yet America's secular Jews still have a distinct culture.
 
What I am trying to say is that, I just don't think that the rising middle classes of Western Europe were ready to accept Jews at that stage (say 1870s to 1940s). It was until the Post WW2 era that Jews really found a place and that was mainly out of guilt for not acting. I don't think that Europeans (no offense meant, Americans are just as if not more guilty of this, but we are talking about Europe and not America) will all of a sudden stop being Anti-semitic. I think that the ideology will die but in a world without WW1 or WW2 Eugenics and the surrounding racial theories are NOT discredited dribble but very much credible. So while I think the educated classes would come to there sense I think that the narrow minded will still be able to draw on Eugenics as credible thought and stir up the masses.

No doubt whatsoever. But these beliefs, at least in most of Western Europe, were a minority position withregard to the Jews. OK, it's the early twentieth century, pretty much everybody was aracist, but that didn't stop many people from getting along with their Jewish neighbours much better than they would (or did) with fellow Christians of a different language. Discrimination and prejudice won't go away (we've had the WWII aftermath and it still hasn't), but unless you manage to reverse secular trends, it's going to continue decreasing. IOTL there was pretty much no Western European country left by 1920 that didn't accord Jews legal equality. Without "the Nazis" (that being shorthand for the successful political instrumentalisation of antisemitism post WWI, not the persons of Hitler and Goebbels) I'd expect most tensions to be over the immigration of Eastern European Jews - roughly analogous to the immigration rows over Muslims in modern Europe, just earlier. Germany is going to be the focus of that problem because a) it was fairly welcoming, b) many of the East European Jews spoke Yiddish and could thus blend in and c) people'd notice the accent much longer. THese things take a couple decades to work themselves out, so if we assume the peak of the problems in the 1930s, it shouldbe done by maybe 1970 or 1980 (assuming roughly the same pattern as for the Ruhrpolen).
 
Yes, without those silly murderers called the Nazis, the Jews would pretty much have become integrated in Western Europe and Germany.

I'd say that from a modern point of view, the Jews were actually extremely well integrated.

In western Europe, the Jews were mostly well educated, spoke the domestic language fluently, lived in their respective homes for generations, payed their taxes and followed the law. This is pretty much all that we hope from integration of recent immigrants into Europe today.
 

yourworstnightmare

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I'd say that from a modern point of view, the Jews were actually extremely well integrated.

In western Europe, the Jews were mostly well educated, spoke the domestic language fluently, lived in their respective homes for generations, payed their taxes and followed the law. This is pretty much all that we hope from integration of recent immigrants into Europe today.
Which was the point I made. The problems with integrations would be in East and Central Europe, not in Germany and Western Europe.
 
No doubt whatsoever. But these beliefs, at least in most of Western Europe, were a minority position withregard to the Jews. OK, it's the early twentieth century, pretty much everybody was aracist, but that didn't stop many people from getting along with their Jewish neighbours much better than they would (or did) with fellow Christians of a different language. Discrimination and prejudice won't go away (we've had the WWII aftermath and it still hasn't), but unless you manage to reverse secular trends, it's going to continue decreasing. IOTL there was pretty much no Western European country left by 1920 that didn't accord Jews legal equality. Without "the Nazis" (that being shorthand for the successful political instrumentalisation of antisemitism post WWI, not the persons of Hitler and Goebbels) I'd expect most tensions to be over the immigration of Eastern European Jews - roughly analogous to the immigration rows over Muslims in modern Europe, just earlier. Germany is going to be the focus of that problem because a) it was fairly welcoming, b) many of the East European Jews spoke Yiddish and could thus blend in and c) people'd notice the accent much longer. THese things take a couple decades to work themselves out, so if we assume the peak of the problems in the 1930s, it shouldbe done by maybe 1970 or 1980 (assuming roughly the same pattern as for the Ruhrpolen).

Sounds reasonable to me. :)
 
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