If he lived just a bit longer and if Caligula makes some horrendous misstep concerning Jewish policy (like putting a statue of himself in the Temple), could Joshua bar Joseph trigger an early Jewish-Roman War and at the very least die as a martyr for the Jewish cause?
Jesus the Jewish Messiah
Hm, I didn't think about that. Yes he would. If Caligula created a statue of himself in Jersulam the Jews would go crazy because they would likely see it as a form of Idol Worship being force on to them by Rome, at the time obviously a Polytheistic Empire. Jews be it Rabbi or the population hated Rome as it was if Caligula made a statue of himself he could have easily set off a early Jewish-Roman War. Good thinking.
What would the Rabbis do? The Rabbi Establishment was trying to suck up to Rome in our timeline. Rome really in our timeline had little power over Judea it was mainly the Rabbi, all Rome had was the fear of being the largest empire in the world, big army and everything else that comes with it.
Minty_Fresh
Banned
The assertion that Jesus was the son of God was probably a much bigger obstacle than his lack of anti-Roman militancy to being accepted as Messiah. To Jews, and Muslims for that matter, the assertion that God could procreate was blasphemy.
Being of the Davidic Line would also have to be accepted almost universally, and Jesus meeting the qualifications is something that Christians and Jews disagree on.
Being of the Davidic Line would also have to be accepted almost universally, and Jesus meeting the qualifications is something that Christians and Jews disagree on.
Actually, the biggest single obstacle to accepting Jesus as the Messiah is 'why him?'
To be fair to the Temple authorities, dozens of people had claimed to be the Messiah, gathered followers - and then mostly tried to lead a revolt.
To the minds of the Jewish authorities, ANY claim to Messiahhood was an incitement to revolt, and had to be suppressed quickly lest the Romans crushed what vestiges of Jewish authority was left.
Of course, they were also aware that their status and authority would be the first to go.
Now, it's true that a less corrupt and political leadership might have at least entertained the possibility that Jeshua bar Joseph was who he claimed to be. The very fact that he was NOT rising in revolt at least separated him from most of the other self-proclaimed messiahs. But, suppose you are on the Sanhedrin. As a body, you think there's a 10% chance he's for real. However, there's a 99% chance that the Romans will oust (and likely execute) you and devastate the whole country if you support him. What would YOU do, honestly?
To be fair to the Temple authorities, dozens of people had claimed to be the Messiah, gathered followers - and then mostly tried to lead a revolt.
To the minds of the Jewish authorities, ANY claim to Messiahhood was an incitement to revolt, and had to be suppressed quickly lest the Romans crushed what vestiges of Jewish authority was left.
Of course, they were also aware that their status and authority would be the first to go.
Now, it's true that a less corrupt and political leadership might have at least entertained the possibility that Jeshua bar Joseph was who he claimed to be. The very fact that he was NOT rising in revolt at least separated him from most of the other self-proclaimed messiahs. But, suppose you are on the Sanhedrin. As a body, you think there's a 10% chance he's for real. However, there's a 99% chance that the Romans will oust (and likely execute) you and devastate the whole country if you support him. What would YOU do, honestly?
jahenders
Banned
Good point and reference. Perhaps you could somehow get a situation where the Romans in the region are distracted for a while (maybe conflict with the Parthians in Armenia). During that period of Roman distraction, Jesus could potentially kick out the governors and set up a Jewish state.
However, the KEY difference would be that mindset of "Render unto Caesar" -- Jesus could acknowledge that his Jewish kingdom was a tributary to, or part of, the Roman Empire. Essentially, he could acknowledge Rome's ultimate temporal power, but he could rule Judea as Priest/King to a Jewish/Christian realm within the Roman tapestry.
fi11222
Banned
Yes but eventually the Romans would come back and crush it. At that time, Rome was not going to let any province get away. For that to be possible, it would have had to happen later, in the IIIrd century at the earliest.
That is utterly impossible for a Jewish Messiah claimant. By definition, the Messiah is king of the world and crusher of the nations (the goyim). The "render unto Ceasar" motto came after the fact when the kingdom of the Messiah became "not of this world". The whole "Jesus" story as told in the gospels is most likely an adaptation to the lessons learned during the first Jewish war. Many of the Jews who joined the Jesus movement after that war did so in a typical Millerite-like post-disappointment frame of mind. "If we were crushed by the Romans it must mean that the kingdom of the Messiah is not of this world" must have been the train of thought of many.
Looking at a messianic movement much closer to our own time, would you imagine Caliph Al-Baghdadi entering talks with Barack Obama to turn ISIS into a US-affiliated petromonarchy?