Jefferson crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1806

In 1806 Kaiser Francis dissolved the Holy Roman Empire and declared himself the Emperor of Austria.

The Pope at this time was fed up with Napoleon and wanted a way out of this mess. With the point of divergence being the US declaring war on France in 1798, paint a scenario where the Pope refuses to recognize Francis's decision and instead crowns the President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, as the Emperor of the Romans in 1806. Bonus points if the Congress votes to allow this, as otherwise it would be illegal under the Titles of Nobility Clause.
 
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Md139115

Banned
Jefferson would probably die of laughter before he can write his letter declining the title.

That is definitely one of the most creative ideas I’ve ever seen on here though!x'D
 
Assuming that somehow Jefferson actually becomes Holy Roman Emperor, then he would probably use a very light touch due to his 'state's rights' and agrarian idyll inclinations. He probably wouldn't be popular amongst the bishoprics and archbishoprics as well as the more industrial member states, but he may gain the respect of the free cities and less industrial states. Industrial being a relative term in the early 19th century.
 

Kaze

Banned
Wouldn't Jefferson need to be Catholic?

Nope.

Catholic electoral votes:
The Archbishop of Mainz
The Archbishop of Trier
The Archbishop of Cologne
The King of Bohemia (Habsburg)
The Elector of Bavaria
Protestant electoral votes:
The Elector of Saxony (Catholic)
The Elector of Brandenburg, who was also King of Prussia
The Elector of Hanover, who was also King of Great Britain

Technically the title can go to a Protestant; But, it normally went among the current holding family - the Haspburgs. As for Jefferson being Holy Roman Emperor is it ASB, if anything the Pope could invest the title with the Elector of Hanover, which would be King George of England.
 
This belongs in ASB.
From the personal experience of having a thread locked in the ASB Forum, I can tell you that just because something is wildly implausible and would never really happen doesn't mean that it goes in ASB. ASB is for time travel, teleportation, and other historical 'events' that are literally impossible.
 
From the personal experience of having a thread locked in the ASB Forum, I can tell you that just because something is wildly implausible and would never really happen doesn't mean that it goes in ASB. ASB is for time travel, teleportation, and other historical 'events' that are literally impossible.
Say it louder for the people in the back
 
Why pope even would think POTUS as Holy Roman emperor? If he would does that, all would think that he is senile or crazy and pope would be soon removed from his office.
 
Ok, so I'm glad the thread didn't immediately derail, and I like the conversation so far. Now, is this situation plausible? Certainly not. But I don't think it is necessarily Alien Space Bats right out of the gate. By 1806 the situation was very desperate in Germany. Napoleon was trying to force through the Confederation of the Rhine, and it looked like he might actually conquer most of Germany. The Holy Roman Empire was effectively a facade at that point.

So why would the Pope chose the POTUS for this role? Well, if he was dead set on picking someone, then the only real options would be (a) Britain, (b) someone in the Empire, or (c) A country not in Europe. There were precious few independent nations with Christian leaders at this point. South America hadn't even revolted. The United States was easily the foremost independent Western nation outside of Europe, and were a legitimate government in the eyes of all major powers.

I think we all understand that Britain would have no interest in this charade- they had their own Empire and would gain nothing by entangling themselves in the HRE. Prussia probably would do it if the Pope asked, but it changes little about the situation as a whole, as they were still vulnerable at that point.

So, why would Jefferson do it? Well, he wouldn't in OTL, but if the TTL US was at war with France, and they really wanted to piss off Napoleon, there's nothing better. He wouldn't have to be Catholic, since at that point the Pope was exasperated with Napoleon and barely considered him Catholic (he would be excommunicated in 1809). He would probably have to pledge to defend the faith or something to that regard- and who better than the drafter of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom?
 
Hmmm, would there be any land attached to the title? After the Napoleonic Wars would we see Tommy heading over to Erfurt or someplace to escape his creditors?
 
In 1806 Kaiser Francis dissolved the Holy Roman Empire and declared himself the Emperor of Austria.

The Pope at this time was fed up with Napoleon and wanted a way out of this mess. With the point of divergence being the US declaring war on France in 1798, paint a scenario where the Pope refuses to recognize Francis's decision and instead crowns the President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, as the Emperor of the Romans in 1806. Bonus points if the US Constitution is amended to allow for this, as otherwise it would be illegal under the Titles of Nobility Clause.
Maybe Jefferson marries his daughter Martha to Napoleon instead of Habsburg Emperor Franz.
 
The US constitution bars assumptions of titles of nobility, which the title "Holy Roman Emperor" certainly is, so not ASB, but definitely illegal.

Really I don't see any way of making this work, with any POD after Jefferson's birth. It would be easier to make him Pope.
 
I would actually say "Holy Roman Emperor" is not NECESSARILY a title of nobility as defined in the constitution, since the whole POINT of that clause was to prevent an American citizen owing fealty to another ruler. In this case, the American citizen WOULD BE that other ruler, and arguably regnant titles are not nobility, but royalty, and a case could certainly be made by lawyers, and won at the US Supreme Court, that that clause did not apply in this instance.
 
The US constitution bars assumptions of titles of nobility, which the title "Holy Roman Emperor" certainly is, so not ASB, but definitely illegal.

Really I don't see any way of making this work, with any POD after Jefferson's birth. It would be easier to make him Pope.

Incorrect.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

You just need Congress to go along with it, as far as foreign titles and offices are concerned.
 
The US constitution bars assumptions of titles of nobility, which the title "Holy Roman Emperor" certainly is, so not ASB, but definitely illegal.

Really I don't see any way of making this work, with any POD after Jefferson's birth. It would be easier to make him Pope.

AFAIK THAT was only brought in later, but I could be wrong.

That said, IIRC to BE Holy Roman Emperor one actually needed to possess land INSIDE the empire (however small- François Étienne of Lorraine originally only had the county of Falkenburg and the duchy of Teschen; the first Luxemburg emperor only had the county of Luxemburg (his other possessions were regarded as being outside the empire)). No idea how people like Henry VIII or Richard of Cornwall got considered (Alfonso X could make the shaky claim of having a blood link to the Hohenstaufens), though.
 
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