Jasper Tudor

He has surviving children by his wife, Catherine Woodville. How do they figure into Tudor politics, especially when it is obvious that Henry VIII will not have any sons by Catherine of Aragon?
 
Ok so, Catherine had 4 healthy children at this point, and Jasper had at least 1 if not 2 acknowledged illegitimate, so children weren't necessarily off the table. And Catherine was only 27 when they married, although he was 56. If he and Catherine had a son around 1488/89 and maybe a daughter around 1493/94, then we have an interesting scenario. These are two young people with very strong links to the royal family with absolutely no real claim to the throne. Thus, I can see these children being very highly prized in the marriage market and probable favourites of the ROYAL Tudor line.

Name wise, we have to look at how Catherine and Jasper named their own children OTL. Catherine went with fairly conventional with her choices, they were all royal names connected with the Yorks. Jasper, meanwhile, went with Helen/Ellen and Joan, both fairly simple, conventional and English names. So I can see the names being fairly conventional and callbacks to their Tudor roots. Perhaps Henry or Edmund for the boy (I personally think Edmund, if just in memory of his brother, although Owen works too) and Catherine, Jacquetta (probably not but still) or Margaret for the girl (I like Catherine better, just to be a callback to Jasper's French Royal mother.

Now where'd they marry is an interesting question. If Catherine is unattached by 1511, then the widowed Thomas Howard would make a good husband, particularly because I can see Catherine wanting some sort of Duke if she can, if just because 2 of her brothers are Dukes in this scenario. If not him, then I can see a match with Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset, but that's a little too close for comfort. And in 1511 she's only be around 17/18, so it could work. So A proper Tudor/Howard match. For our Edmund, I can see some form of semi-royal bride, or perhaps just a woman with some clout with the royal family. I see perhaps Margaret Courtney or Jane/Elizabeth/Margaret Stanley, or perhaps both if we have the Stanley girl doesn't survive one of her childbirths.

Now here is what I've come up with:

Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1429: d.1495) m. Catherine Woodville (b.1458: d.1497) (a)

1a) Edmund Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1487: d.1531) m. Jane Stanley (c.1490: d.1515) (a), Margaret Courtney (b.1499: d.1518) (b), Ursula Pole (b.1504: d.1570)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1513)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1515)

3b) Henry Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1518)

4c) Catherine Tudor (b.1521)

5c) Miscarriage (c.1524)

6c) Owen Tudor, Earl of Pembroke (b.1527)

7c) Stillborn Daughter (c.1528)

8c) Anne Tudor (b.1530)​

2a) Catherine Tudor (b.1493: d.1569) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b.1473: d.1554) (a)

1a) Margaret Howard (b.1513: d.1514)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1514)

3a) Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey (b.1516)

4a) Mary Howard (b.1518)

5a) Miscarriage (c.1519)

6a) William Howard, Viscount Howard of Bindon (b.1522)

7a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1525)​
 
I think Henry, Duke of Bedford is exactly the right age for becoming King Henry IX as husband of Mary I... With a semi-royal kinsman with the Tudor surname and the right age to be a domestic match for his Mary maybe Henry will be less obsessed by the need to have a son
 
I think Henry, Duke of Bedford is exactly the right age for becoming King Henry IX as husband of Mary I... With a semi-royal kinsman with the Tudor surname and the right age to be a domestic match for his Mary maybe Henry will be less obsessed by the need to have a son

Henry was obsessed with HIS Tudor line. Marrying Mary to our Duke of Bedford only creates a challenger line to his own son if that son comes much later in life. Particularly now that he has actual English Royal Blood on his side (Margaret Courtney was a granddaughter of Edward IV). No, I see the match being proposed and dropped several times before eventually Henry finds his cousin some good, clean heiress. Tbh, maybe even a Howard girl would do. Maybe a Howard girl a few years younger than him? Not a rich girl, but an exceptionally attractive one. Hmmm....

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Henry was obsessed with HIS Tudor line. Marrying Mary to our Duke of Bedford only creates a challenger line to his own son if that son comes much later in life. Particularly now that he has actual English Royal Blood on his side (Margaret Courtney was a granddaughter of Edward IV). No, I see the match being proposed and dropped several times before eventually Henry finds his cousin some good, clean heiress. Tbh, maybe even a Howard girl would do. Maybe a Howard girl a few years younger than him? Not a rich girl, but an exceptionally attractive one. Hmmm....

Not really. Marrying Mary to another young Tudor is a better way to resolve the succession crisis than making the Emperor his enemy trying to divorce his aunt because he need a son for continuing the Tudor line. OTL he had neither a younger brother or a cousin or nephew with the Tudor name while his closest male relative was his sister's son the King of Scotland. Henry's greatest problem was who his closest male heir was a foreign and the king of a nation who was often enemy of England.
 
Not really. Marrying Mary to another young Tudor is a better way to resolve the succession crisis than making the Emperor his enemy trying to divorce his aunt because he need a son for continuing the Tudor line. OTL he had neither a younger brother or a cousin or nephew with the Tudor name while his closest male relative was his sister's son the King of Scotland. Henry's greatest problem was who his closest male heir was a foreign and the king of a nation who was often enemy of England.

I know, that's the smart thing to do. But Henry was quite obsessed with his line following him through a male heir if he could. Even if he married them around 1536, then his next bride might give him a son and he's just wasted a valuable marriage pawn in Mary to what would be most likely an already loyal Duke of Bedford.

Here's what I think might happen:

Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1429: d.1495) m. Catherine Woodville (b.1458: d.1497) (a)

1a) Edmund Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1487: d.1531) m. Jane Stanley (c.1490: d.1515) (a), Margaret Courtney (b.1499: d.1518) (b), Ursula Pole (b.1504: d.1570)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1513)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1515)

3b) Henry Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1518: d.1567) m. Catherine Howard (b.1524) (a)

1a) Joan Tudor (b.1547)

2a) Edward Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1550)​

4c) Catherine Tudor (b.1521) m. John de Vere, 16th Earl of Oxford (b.1516: d.1549) (a)

1a) Mary de Vere (b.1539)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1541)

3a) George de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford (b.1542)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1545)

5a) Katherine de Vere (b.1548: d.1550)​

5c) Miscarriage (c.1524)

6c) Owen Tudor, Earl of Pembroke (b.1527) m. Anne Grey (b.1526) (a)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1546)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1548)

3a) Margaret Tudor (b.1550: d.1553)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1551)

5a) Joan Tudor (b.1554: d.1569)​

7c) Stillborn Daughter (c.1528)

8c) Anne Tudor (b.1530: d.1554) m. Henry Radclyffe, 4th Earl of Sussex (b.1530: d.1593) (a)

1a) Mary Radclyffe (b.1546)

2a) Jane Radclyffe (b.1547)

3a) Grace Radclyffe (b.1548)

4a) Thomas Radclyffe (b.1549: d.1550)

5a) Catherine Radclyffe (b.1551)

6a) Eleanor Radclyffe (b.1552)

7a) Cecily Radclyffe (b.1553: d.1553)

8a) Edward Radclyffe (b.1554)​

2a) Catherine Tudor (b.1493: d.1569) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (b.1473: d.1554) (a)

1a) Margaret Howard (b.1513: d.1514)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1514)

3a) Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey (b.1516) m. Eleanor Brandon (b.1519: d.1547) (a)

1a) Catherine Howard (b.1540)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1543)

3a) Mary Howard (b.1545)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1547)​

4a) Mary Howard (b.1518: d.1579) m. Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (b.1519: d.1536) (a), Henry Clifford, 2nd Earl of Cumberland (b.1517: d.1570) (b)

1b) Edmund Clifford, 3rd Earl of Cumberland (b.1545)​

5a) Miscarriage (c.1519)

6a) William Howard, Viscount Howard of Bindon (b.1522: d.1568) m. Elizabeth Stanley (c.1530: d.1598) (a)

7a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1525)​
 
At this point I still think Henry will decide who marrying Mary to Bedford is the safest thing to do. Spain and Portugal can not offer any match for Mary and while France can offer the Dauphin, Henry will likely opt against it for fear to give his kingdom to the French (and likely Karherine will point that many and many times) so we came back to Bedford. Katherine here will likely live a little longer than OTL and so Henry will keep Mary engaged to Bedford until she lives. In any case a match abroad for Mary is unlikely until she has a brother who replace her as heir (and after the death of the Dauphin Francis is unlikely who a still Catholic Henry will find a match good enough for Mary so is still likely who she will marry Bedford and Henry VIII remarry to some Spanish princess likely Christine of Denmark or Maria of Portugal
 
Not really. Marrying Mary to another young Tudor is a better way to resolve the succession crisis than making the Emperor his enemy trying to divorce his aunt because he need a son for continuing the Tudor line. OTL he had neither a younger brother or a cousin or nephew with the Tudor name while his closest male relative was his sister's son the King of Scotland. Henry's greatest problem was who his closest male heir was a foreign and the king of a nation who was often enemy of England.
Problem is that Henry's got a ridiculously large ego.
 
Problem is that Henry's got a ridiculously large ego.
Also, sure. But still the main point of his search of a male heir was that he feared a repeat of the situation with Matilda and wished the continuity of the Tudor line. A Tudor cousin married to his daughter is really the better solution to the problem...
 
Also, sure. But still the main point of his search of a male heir was that he feared a repeat of the situation with Matilda and wished the continuity of the Tudor line. A Tudor cousin married to his daughter is really the better solution to the problem...

That's why it'd probably be teased to the Duke of Bedford for years. However, once Henry has a legitimate son, from some second wife, then I see him just ending the possibility of a Bedford/Mary match. His second son could come from a match after Catherine dies.
If that happens, I can see Mary being offered as a second bride if our Catherine Howard doesn't survive childbirth, now that Mary is a little old for a dynastic alliance. Particularly because Bedford would be a frontrunner for the regency of whatever King after Henry comes.

Perhaps like this:

Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1547) m. Catherine of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a), Maria of Portugal (b.1521: d.1577) (b)

1a) Stillborn Girl (c.1510)

2a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1511: d.1511)

3a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1513: d.1513)

4a) Henry Tudor, Duke of Cornwall (b.1515: d.1515)

5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516) m. Henry Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1518: d.1567) (a)

1a) Charles Tudor (b.1552)​

6a) Stillborn Girl (c.1518)

7b) Edward VI of England (b.1537) m. Elisabeth de Valois (b.1545: d.1570) (a)

1a) Margaret Tudor (b.1563: d.1576)

2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1566)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1567)

4a) Catherine Tudor (b.1569: d.1570)

5a) Miscarriage (c.1570)​

8b) Miscarriage (c.1539)

9b) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1542: d.1602) m. Philip II of Spain (b.1527: d.1598) (a)

1a) Diego of Spain (b.1571: d.1572)

2a) Joanna of Spain (b.1575)

3a) Philip III of Spain (b.1577)​
3b) Henry Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1518: d.1567) m. Catherine Howard (b.1524: d.1550) (a), Mary Tudor (b.1516: d.1558) (b)

1a) Joan Tudor (b.1547)

2a) Edward Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b.1550)

3b) Charles Tudor, Duke of Richmond (b.1552)​
 
I still think who Catherine, remaining Queen, will likely die later than OTL (maybe a couple of years later only). And in any case at the time of Katherine's OTL death Mary was around twenty, her proposed bridegroom eighteen.... Is likely they are already married... The second best thing for Henry after a male son is surely a male grandson by Mary if she is his only heiress (and if this grandson bear the Tudor surname still better). A wedding between Mary and Bedford is likely to happen around 1534/1535 while Katherine was still alive and Queen. Henry will likely keep Mary, heiress of England, close and with a safe domestical match but will also wanted grandchildren by Mary for securing the succession. Sure after Catherine's death he will remarry and will have other children included sons who will replace Mary, but his eldest daughter will be married and likely mother at this point.
 
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