Japanese victory in the pacific war - is it really ASB?

Ian_W

Banned
I've already provided extensive evidence:


So not only do we have evidence that the IJA was opposed to striking the Americans, we also know major players in the Navy, such as Nagano (Chief of Staff) and Shimada (Navy Minister) were likewise opposed to such. Outside of the realm of opinion on the matter, I've already cited Lieutenant-Colonel Nishiura Susumu's plan, presented by the Army in the Summer of 1940 to occupy European possessions, but I'll also note the Navy-despite Yamamoto's veto of such-did conduct exercises likewise along these lines in November of 1940.

So not only do we have an influence base, we also have the Japanese planning to do exactly this in 1940 anyway.

So what you're saying is that the relatively sane bits of WW2 Japan saw that leaving a large potential enemy base between the homeland and where you are planning on conquering is a bad idea, and the more insane bits of WW2 Japan thought it would be a great idea and that nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan ?

And therefore invading Malaya - which can't knock Britain out of the war - while letting the USN get war ready at the same time that the USN are building a massive new fleet and the US Army is fortifying the Philipenes is the road to victory.

Okay.
 
Hard to say, both are unreliable sources. I'd say more toward the Soviets, they won the battle.

Well, even looking at only a few instances it is clear that Soviet losses from all causes were heavy. For example, by 13 August the 257th Tank Brigade had been reduced from its original strength of 65 tanks down to 7 as a consequence of both wear and enemy action. The next day, the 210th and 218th Tank Brigades were also engaged in heavy combat around Ssutaoling Hill, near the town of the same name: there they fought against elements of the Japanese 126th Division and lost about 34 tanks (per a Japanese memoir quoted in Glantz - of these 8 were destroyed by "close quarter" attacks and 26 by artillery fire). The next day four more tanks were destroyed by various means, another five by suicide bombers, and four disabled (also per Japanese accounts). After this action, the Soviets fell back to regroup as they were unable to overrun the 126th Division's HQ. Japanese losses at Ssutaolong included 23 guns and 4 tanks and AT guns.

Aside from these, there are several references to tanks being destroyed here and there in twos and threes, but specifics are lacking. Glantz considers the Japanese estimate of Soviet casualties for the Battle of Mutanchiang (7,000 to 10,000 and 300 tanks) as 'not far from the truth.'
 
So not only do we have evidence that the IJA was opposed to striking the Americans, we also know major players in the Navy, such as Nagano (Chief of Staff) and Shimada (Navy Minister) were likewise opposed to such. Outside of the realm of opinion on the matter, I've already cited Lieutenant-Colonel Nishiura Susumu's plan, presented by the Army in the Summer of 1940 to occupy European possessions, but I'll also note the Navy-despite Yamamoto's veto of such-did conduct exercises likewise along these lines in November of 1940.

I feel you're missing several points here.

When Nagano stated on July 30 1941 that "there's no way but to strike", it was despite of the apparent odds against Japan and his declared opposition to the war against the United States (Senshi Sosho vol.91 p.529). He was advocating and justifying for a war with the United States five months before the Pearl Harbor, however how exactly reluctant he was. By October 4 he was saying "the time for 'discussion' (or 'disukasshon' as he worded) has gone" in referring to the on-going negotiation (p.558). If he indeed was opposed to the war he didn't show any. Shimada showed more reluctance than Nagano but eventually came to his 'resolution' that time is running out and so is Japan's chance against America. (Senshi Sosho vol.101 pp.531-532) The authors of Senshi Sosho vol.91 attribute this change in heart to the fact that Shimada owed his ministerial appointment to Prince Fushimi who supported the war. Now where's Yamamoto in this picture?

I also can't find indications that Yamamoto held such a power to 'reject' the Army's own internal documents. Nishiura's general plan was that, an internal document, meant to serve as a basis for future army operation in South. (Senshi Sosho vol.2 pp.48-49)

The 1940 November maneuver followed Navy's own operational plan against the Dutch East Indies. The result of this maneuver was then referred by Yamamoto to convince the Chief of Naval General Staff (Prince Fushimi) and the Minister of Navy (Oikawa) that any aggression against the Dutch East Indies would inevitably end up in a war with the UK and the USA. (Senshi Sosho vol.91 pp.508-509)

It is true that the Army wanted to delay the Philippines operation in 1941. It however wasn't the first time the Army and the Navy conflicted over operational priority. (For the 1935 Army-Navy dispute over the Philippines, see Senshi Sosho vol.91 p.262. For the 1941 Army-Navy dispute over the Philippines, see the Senshi Sosho vol.1 pp.38-40) The Philippines operation in turn was not the result of Yamamoto's obsession on America, but the legacy of the Navy's long standing tradition since 1911 when they first planned the attack on the archipelago as part of their warplan against America. (Senshi Sosho vol.91 pp.132-135)

Yamamoto did not threaten his resignation over the declaration of war against the USA, it was over the size of the Pearl Harbor operation. The Chief of Naval General Staff (Nagano) slashed the Combined Fleet's original plan that employed six aircraft carriers, authorizing only four aircraft carriers for the operation, and in the response Yamamoto threatened his resignation, giving the Naval General Staffs no room to maneuver but to assent the operation as Yamamoto wanted. (Senshi Sosho vol.101 pp.522-523)
 
The problem, as I see it, is Japan bringing war to the US homeland as well as doing it in a sneak attack. So yes, the war was over after Pearl Harbor.

However I do think that Japan could had won against the US in a limited war where the US made the first move.

Invade SEA which were not US properties, but of its allies, if the US doesnt declare war you have the oil, if they do then broadcast very publicly and on official telegrams that you abhor war with the US and that the only reason you attacked the SEA was that you were forced by the oil embargo.

After this attack the Philippines, this gives you about 15-20k American POWs. Offer immediately withdrawal from the Philippines and release of the prisoners in exchange for peace terms, make it clear that you are even willing to withdraw from SEA if the US ends the embargo.

Not saying this would necessarily work, but it is certainly a better strategy than surprise attacking the US at home.
 

Ian_W

Banned
The problem, as I see it, is Japan bringing war to the US homeland as well as doing it in a sneak attack. So yes, the war was over after Pearl Harbor.

However I do think that Japan could had won against the US in a limited war where the US made the first move.

Invade SEA which were not US properties, but of its allies, if the US doesnt declare war you have the oil, if they do then broadcast very publicly and on official telegrams that you abhor war with the US and that the only reason you attacked the SEA was that you were forced by the oil embargo.

After this attack the Philippines, this gives you about 15-20k American POWs. Offer immediately withdrawal from the Philippines and release of the prisoners in exchange for peace terms, make it clear that you are even willing to withdraw from SEA if the US ends the embargo.

Not saying this would necessarily work, but it is certainly a better strategy than surprise attacking the US at home.

Now, explain to the Navy how there is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving the Philippines alone so they can keep sending out patrols to keep telling the British where our fleet is, while they proceed to strengthen their fleet. The Two Ocean Navy act, passed in 1940, has authorised the US Navy to build an additional eighteen aircraft carriers.

Next, explain to the Army why it is a good idea to let the Americans have six months to fortify the Phillipines.

Next, explain to the Merchant Marine how they are going to transit past this American base without the Americans telling British and Dutch submarines where they are.

Once you've done all that, answer Yamamoto's objection, regarding needing to occupy not Wake, nor Hawaii, nor even San Francisco, but Washington DC.
 
Not saying this would necessarily work, but it is certainly a better strategy than surprise attacking the US at home.

Just to clear: Hawaii in 1941 was a territory, not a state. Granted, a territory with a more intimate connection to the Lower 48, but not really "home," yet, either.

But yeah, I do agree: leaving the Americans untouched in the Philippines, directly astride the empire's shipping routes to SE Asia, was always going to be a tough sell to Navy planners, whether Yamamoto was alive or dead.
 
After this attack the Philippines, this gives you about 15-20k American POWs. Offer immediately withdrawal from the Philippines and release of the prisoners in exchange for peace terms...

That could be rather awkward given the probable inevitability of this:

Prisoners-Bataan-Death-March-March-1942.jpg
 

AZrailwhale

Banned
Good argument, but if 2 divisions arent enough, make it 3 or 4. Its not that Japan didn't have enough men or guns.

The japanese merchant fleet is perhaps the biggest problem, but considering what they managed to do in OTL (conquer allmost all of SEA in one year and hold it untill 1945 despite massive losses to american submarines), it seems as if it can support such an operation.
With three or four divisions in Hawaii, both the civilians and Japanese would starve. Hawai’i imported most of its food before the war and adding twenty or thirty thousand new mouths while cutting off trade to the only nearby producer of food would be a recipe for disaster. American subs would prevent single merchant ships from bringing food and material and the Japanese didn’t have the fuel to run convoys all the way across the Pacific. Even if they tried, any convoys would need battleship and carrier escorts to protect them from US raiding task forces. The escorts would take damage from subs and raiding task forces with no repair facilities closer than Japan. That’s a war of attrition the Japanese couldn’t win. Taking Hawai’i would be a strategic disaster for a Japan.
 
I think what Belisarius is trying to argue is that the Brits were spread so thin, that a Ceylon invasion forces them to make a set of hard choices that costs them dearly somewhere - that either they claw back Ceylon, or give up Egypt, or give up on Malta, or give up control of the Mediterranean, or something close to that. Certainy, the fear had occured to Churchill and his chiefs at the moment. But that was because they had overestimated Japanese capabilities (after having underestimating them for years until December, 1941).



And they'll leave because of the Doolittle Raid, even if the extra fuel they bring along lasts them that long; we know how Yamamoto reacted to that OTL (answer: "frantic").

I suppose Nagumo could leave Ozawa behind with the Malay Force to continue providing some kind of coverage (though again, with what fuel?), but he might as well gift wrap Ryujo for Somerville if he does. Bridge in a couple squadrons of Bettys to Trincomalee airfield? Sure, maybe you could manage that, though they'll be useless if you don't capture any avgas intact from the Brits; and even if you do, they can't do strikes on Somerville at the same time that they're trying to interdict shipping from India or that they're trying to provide some modest CAS to the landing force.



Good point about the 25th and 14th - I knew some divisions were up there, but I hadn't tracked it down yet. Might take a couple weeks to do it this way, but Layton's forces are not going to be detroyed in two weeks.

Thank you for understanding my point. Ceylon stretchers already thin Allied Forces. It also blocks the Bay of Bengal. Now for the 14th Division, it was covering the border with Burma. I read some pertinent information in looking up it's history.

In the aftermath of the Japanese conquest of Burma, the 14th Division was sent to garrison Chittagong, on the frontier with Burma. As part of the lessons learned by the British Indian Army in the retreat from Burma, the division's equipment was lightened and its establishment was reduced, to allow easier movement off roads and in difficult terrain. The divisional transport consisted of four jeep companies and six mule companies. The division was renamed 14th Indian (Light) Division to reflect these changes.[2]

The light division's establishment included only two infantry brigades (instead of the usual three). However, in July 1942, the division also took over the 55th Indian Infantry Brigade as a third brigade, and also the 88th Indian Infantry Brigade for the static defence of Chittagong. The main body of the division held a line around Cox's Bazar, on the frontier with Burma.

The British needed time to learn, and absorb the lessons of Malaya, and Burma, before they could successfully take on the Japanese in jungle terrain. Even then the Japanese still out fought them in Burma during 1943. The troops in Ceylon haven't been retrained, and reorganized, to take those lessons into account. General Slim, Wingate, and others were still thinking things out at the time. The 34th Indian Division was completely raw, it had only been formed in March. The Australians, and Africans were good troops, but fought with the same doctrine they fought with in Malaya, and Burma. That's why I'd have to bet against them.

The 25th Division was formed on August 1, 1942, so it wouldn't have been ready for combat for a few months after that. The men need more advanced individual, and unit training. So there are no troops to ship, and no ships to carry them till the Fall. The Madagascar operation was spurred by the fear of a Japanese surge in the Indian Ocean. I would think invading Ceylon would reinforce that fear. I also suggested a Japanese Submarine Blitz. Now I don't think Madagascar is a practical Japanese goal, but the British reacted that way. Now if the British overcome their fear about Madagascar they can use the troops, and amphibious shipping earmarked for that operation to reinforce India, or Ceylon, but to ship them into Columbo in mid May might be throwing good money after bad.
 
The British needed time to learn, and absorb the lessons of Malaya, and Burma, before they could successfully take on the Japanese in jungle terrain. Even then the Japanese still out fought them in Burma during 1943. The troops in Ceylon haven't been retrained, and reorganized, to take those lessons into account. General Slim, Wingate, and others were still thinking things out at the time. The 34th Indian Division was completely raw, it had only been formed in March. The Australians, and Africans were good troops, but fought with the same doctrine they fought with in Malaya, and Burma. That's why I'd have to bet against them.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, actually (save that I would call the Australian brigades "great" troops, not just "good").

But I'd bet on the British because notwithstanding this, the Japanese can't sustain it logistically or reinforce it to any real extent. Geography works too much in favor of the British.
 
I think the problem here is that the real timeline is basically a Japanese wank to begin with. Up to Midway things go so well for a Japan and so badly for GB, Australia and the US that is is somewhat over the top to try and make them go better. And extending the string of luck out longer just starts to sound really unlikely and ultimately runs into the simple fact that the US just had to many men and to many ships coming online in late 43 and thereafter.
I mean really if you wrote a timeline with a country the Size of Japan attacking one the Size of GB and another the size of the US (size refers to size, population, resources and industrial output /military strength) and had them do as well as Japan did to start no one would believe it.

Luck is always an element in war, or any enterprise, but Japan wasn't winning up till Midway because of luck. The IJA defeated the British, and Empire forces in Malaya, Singapore and Burma because they more aggressive, daring, and innovative then the British. The British were too conventional, and lineal in their tactics, and too road bound to cope with Japanese infiltration, and flanking maneuvers. The IJA consistently out marched, and outfought the British. The IJN trained harder then then their RN, or USN counterparts. They had better torpedoes, and night tactics. Their aviators had more experience, and had worked out better large scale attack tactics. The Allies grossly underestimated the capabilities and skill of the Japanese. It was for these reasons the Japanese were running wild, not luck.
 
Luck is always an element in war, or any enterprise, but Japan wasn't winning up till Midway because of luck. The IJA defeated the British, and Empire forces in Malaya, Singapore and Burma because they more aggressive, daring, and innovative then the British. The British were too conventional, and lineal in their tactics, and too road bound to cope with Japanese infiltration, and flanking maneuvers. The IJA consistently out marched, and outfought the British. The IJN trained harder then then their RN, or USN counterparts. They had better torpedoes, and night tactics. Their aviators had more experience, and had worked out better large scale attack tactics. The Allies grossly underestimated the capabilities and skill of the Japanese. It was for these reasons the Japanese were running wild, not luck.

Well, really what *is* luck? It's not really quantifiable, after all.

I like to think of it as developments that you, as a commander, have no control over. That could be weather. It could be decisions or actions by enemy commanders worse or better than the norm. It could be interventions by third parties that are unanticipated. It could even be a plague or a natural disaster.

The Japanese could not count on USN torpedoes being so badly defective. They couldn't count on such ineptitude and lassitude on Percival's part. They couldn't count on INDOMITABLE running aground and thus being unavailable to provide air cover for Force Z (it is true that INDOMITABLE was technically never assigned to Force Z, but it's grounding eliminated even the possibilit of it being assigned, which was under consideration). They couldn't count on MacArthur and his staff getting a deer-in-the-headlights for a full day after the news of Pearl Harbor reached them. They couldn't *count* on achieving complete tactical surprise at Pearl Harbor. They couldn't count on Hitler immediately declaring war on America.

And the truth is, the Japanese did much better than their pre-war planning expectations.
 
So what you're saying is that the relatively sane bits of WW2 Japan saw that leaving a large potential enemy base between the homeland and where you are planning on conquering is a bad idea, and the more insane bits of WW2 Japan thought it would be a great idea and that nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan ?

And therefore invading Malaya - which can't knock Britain out of the war - while letting the USN get war ready at the same time that the USN are building a massive new fleet and the US Army is fortifying the Philipenes is the road to victory.

Okay.

In the Summer of 1940, the U.S. had yet to even institute conscription; the Philippines certainly weren't being fortified, nor was the rest of the Pacific basin for that matter. As it were, the Japanese leadership seems to have been been quite astute on the matter, as American public opinion wasn't supportive of a war over Southeast Asia and they correctly guessed that doing Pearl Harbor would firmly unite Americans behind the war effort.

Finally, it doesn't a genius to realize starting a fight with 40% of the global war-making capacity is a very bad idea....
 
I feel you're missing several points here.

When Nagano stated on July 30 1941 that "there's no way but to strike", it was despite of the apparent odds against Japan and his declared opposition to the war against the United States (Senshi Sosho vol.91 p.529). He was advocating and justifying for a war with the United States five months before the Pearl Harbor, however how exactly reluctant he was. By October 4 he was saying "the time for 'discussion' (or 'disukasshon' as he worded) has gone" in referring to the on-going negotiation (p.558). If he indeed was opposed to the war he didn't show any. Shimada showed more reluctance than Nagano but eventually came to his 'resolution' that time is running out and so is Japan's chance against America. (Senshi Sosho vol.101 pp.531-532) The authors of Senshi Sosho vol.91 attribute this change in heart to the fact that Shimada owed his ministerial appointment to Prince Fushimi who supported the war. Now where's Yamamoto in this picture?

Events by the Summer of 1941 had certainly brought things to a head in ways they weren't in 1940.

I also can't find indications that Yamamoto held such a power to 'reject' the Army's own internal documents. Nishiura's general plan was that, an internal document, meant to serve as a basis for future army operation in South. (Senshi Sosho vol.2 pp.48-49)

The 1940 November maneuver followed Navy's own operational plan against the Dutch East Indies. The result of this maneuver was then referred by Yamamoto to convince the Chief of Naval General Staff (Prince Fushimi) and the Minister of Navy (Oikawa) that any aggression against the Dutch East Indies would inevitably end up in a war with the UK and the USA. (Senshi Sosho vol.91 pp.508-509)

It was presented for possible action in the Summer of 1940 and therefore was not just an internal planning document; the IJN rejected it at Yamamoto.

It is true that the Army wanted to delay the Philippines operation in 1941. It however wasn't the first time the Army and the Navy conflicted over operational priority. (For the 1935 Army-Navy dispute over the Philippines, see Senshi Sosho vol.91 p.262. For the 1941 Army-Navy dispute over the Philippines, see the Senshi Sosho vol.1 pp.38-40) The Philippines operation in turn was not the result of Yamamoto's obsession on America, but the legacy of the Navy's long standing tradition since 1911 when they first planned the attack on the archipelago as part of their warplan against America. (Senshi Sosho vol.91 pp.132-135)

I'm not sure as to what you are arguing against or for here? That the Philippines had been a target of Japanese planning and not the result of Yamamoto was never argued for?

Yamamoto did not threaten his resignation over the declaration of war against the USA, it was over the size of the Pearl Harbor operation. The Chief of Naval General Staff (Nagano) slashed the Combined Fleet's original plan that employed six aircraft carriers, authorizing only four aircraft carriers for the operation, and in the response Yamamoto threatened his resignation, giving the Naval General Staffs no room to maneuver but to assent the operation as Yamamoto wanted. (Senshi Sosho vol.101 pp.522-523)

The last time, sure, but Yamamoto had been repeatedly threatening to resign going back to 1940 and in particular over not targeting the Americans.
 
Events by the Summer of 1941 had certainly brought things to a head in ways they weren't in 1940.

Neither Nagano nor Shimada held ministerial office in 1940.

It was presented for possible action in the Summer of 1940 and therefore was not just an internal planning document; the IJN rejected it at Yamamoto.

Nishiura was involved in editing the Senshi Sosho and I'd trust the author's own words more. I can't even find a single indication that the document was ever brought to the Navy let alone Yamamoto.

I'm not sure as to what you are arguing against or for here? That the Philippines had been a target of Japanese planning and not the result of Yamamoto was never argued for?

You brought the the Army-Navy dispute over the Philippines to back your claim that the Army was against attacking the USA and that Yamamoto was 'the chief cause of Japan's decision to strike the United States'.

The last time, sure, but Yamamoto had been repeatedly threatening to resign going back to 1940 and in particular over not targeting the Americans.

Baseless claim.
 

Ian_W

Banned
You would think, man. You would think.

For just how ludicrously insane parts of Imperial Japan was, I refer you to History Learner's post above.

Some people are just bad with reality, and those people were in charge of Imperial Japan between 1936 and 1945.
 
Luck is always part of anything. But Japan had as good of luck (to start with) as could be expected. Even Japan expectEd things to be worse for them.

As for attacking Ceylon, yeah the out classed over stretched Japan can win the war by Attacking another location farther away from Japan... Just think about that on is basic level. Japan was much smaller then the US let alone the US and Germany. So how is pushing this even farther a good idea?
That being said assuming the do take Ceylon (and frankly I doubt it can happen without huge issues for Japan elsewhere) then what happen? I suppose Germany and Italy may like the idea. But what really hapoens? The US and GB are forced to dump Germany first. So the US tosses MORE at Japan Sooner.... That will be a huge help for Japan in the long run. Make the country that outclasses you and will ultimately run you over like a steamroller (while primarily concentrating on Germany) fear you more so they have to concentrate on you more from the start. Brilliant tactic (For Germany that is).

As for why Japan attacked the US when and how they did when logic and more then a few of its own people think it was a bad idea. Well have you ever played any games? Sometimes you get to a place in games like Risk or Chess or Cards or whatever that you are pretty sure if you attack you are going to get stomped. But you KNOW that it is your only chance hover slim it is.
Yes Japan had no hope, but unless the military wanted change its ways it had no other option. And the Japanese Military was Supremely egotistical and didn’t think anyone else where warriors and would trully fight. Those two issues combined with no other hope ment that the best bet that had was to hit hard while the US was as weak as it would be and Japan was as strong as it would be and hope the US gives up.
Yes it was stupid and was not going to happen. But the only other better option was to toss out the military and change policy in regards to China. So from the military point of few why not attack? One way you are 99% likely to get kicked out of power/influence in a few years, the other way you are 100% sure to get kicked out now.
Or in game terms. You can give up the game now and lose or you can try the hopeless attack hoping for miracle and probably lose later.
 
I can't go through the whole thread at this time, having just noticed it for the first time today.

@Alexniko the OP:

Let me just stipulate, as might be actually disproven by better war nerds than me, that the sweeping doubled down Banzai attack on Hawaii is feasible--IJN let us say can in fact land two divisions in the main Hawaiian islands, first with a nutcracker invasion of Oahu which once secured, is the base to fan out to systematically take the remaining nearby islands. Note that if the IJN does not double down further and immediately attack Midway, simultaneously in fact, the rational thing for the USN command to do is order those units there to remove all the materiel they can, sabotage the rest as much as possible, and board what ships they have currently and withdraw back to continental US Pacific ports (by Great circle, bearing in mind this is December and Alaska is a poor choice, Seattle is closest, then down the coast to SF, SD and Panama). They might have to engage the IJN on the way back but their orders are not to seek that but retreat and regroup at US ports. It is known by then that the Philippines and other US assets are under attack too, so their orders dither between trying to defend them versus a cut and run calculation. So a lot of your assumptions the USN gets ground up finer and finer in the Pacific are predicated on mindless refusal to think defensively; bad luck will trap a lot of US forces where they must defend hopelessly or surrender, but faced with this massive defeat in Hawaii the USN is not going to sit around in Midway to be further whittled down.

Anyway exact magnitudes of losses in 1941 and '42 are not the main thing to consider here. (You didn't even bother to point out loss of Pearl Harbor means loss of those forward shipyard equipment, and in fact that unless US forces take initiative to sabotage everything first, the Japanese capture both this valuable equipment set and any USN vessels, Army airplanes, etc, not scuttled or sabotaged, and they can over time and given materiel, do what we did, use the yards to salvage any scuttled vessels and to maintain their fleet, augmented by captured US hulls!)

So--it is a question of whether this is such a blow to morale on the US home front that US domestic politics forces FDR to sue for terms or drives him out of office to be replaced by some successor. Congress can in fact pull the plug on any administration's war plans if it fails to win majority support in the houses.

But I think you are grossly incorrect in arguing this will in fact happen! You may well be reasonable in saying this is what the Japanese war planners will believe will happen--in fact OTL they believed that the lighter blows they did in fact strike would be sufficient to achieve these results.

Here's the thing. There is not a damn thing the Japanese empire can do to attack the US in its continental stronghold. They can try to invade Alaska, which is tough because of its tough weather and terrain, and if taken in full, it is then up a rough Canadian coast from Seattle; Canada would of course be an ally and thus the entire Puget Sound region is a consolidated defense using US and Canadian assets--of course Canada is no naval superpower, but with US aid they can build stuff and train men as fast as the USA can, just fewer in number. The Canadian approaches to the Pacific NW will be contested!

Or they can try to strike far across the Pacific, direct at the other elements of the US coast and Panama. Indeed the USN is badly decimated, cut almost in half, and the defense of this coast will be nerve wracking for some years to come. An IJN strike force, carrier based or conceivably some giant seaplane launching submarine, can pop up anywhere (the USN can hardly patrol the approaches very well).

Except that airplanes based on land have a fair depth of range, and the inability of the USN to patrol the US coast and west end of the Panama Canal by task force will be supplemented by USN and USAAF patrol flights out to sea, soon incorporating recent inventions like airborne radar. Higher priority than OTL will go to expanding the Goodyear manufactured patrol blimp fleet and building bases for them on the Pacific coast and in Panama; these airships were actually quite effective at forcing subs down and spotting ships, and gradual improvements in them can give impressive range--albeit maybe landplanes will always by this late date in aeronautics outclass them for surface ship patrol missions. Either way, HTA or LTA, CONUS, Pacific Canada, and Alaska will be screened by aircraft, and every attempt to use the planes to attack IJN vessels of any class that are found in range will be made. The IJN then cannot in fact approach the shores and ports of North America with impunity--possible ability to get an Alaskan foothold depends on diverting major force to there ASAP, before the Yankees can make the planes and blimps.

Behind this aeronautical screen CONUS has not only a massively larger industrial complex built, it has vast potential to expand it, and most resources needed can be found right there in the USA. Others in short supply in North America can be gotten from allied controlled British colonies and other colonies the British have occupied.

Presumably in 22 pages the whole question of Germany and the European theater has come up.

There is no default reason to doubt Hitler will do FDR the favor he did OTL of gratuitiously declaring war on the USA, solving the possible political question of whether to try to persuade Congress and the nation to DOW the European Axis powers.

OTL, in late '41 and early '42, the situation looked grim for all the Allies. Conventional wisdom said the USSR would surely collapse fairly soon, and then Hitler (and possibly, in a partition deal, Japan) would have access to formerly Soviet resources and not be drained on that front by more than declining partisan resistance if that. That would also put Hitler in the position of being able to strike directly at British India and the Middle East generally; presumably Turkey would join the Axis or die. In the Pacific and Indonesia, the Japanese were running wild, in China the RoC and Communist resistance to Japanese occupation was in retreat. All Southeast Asia would be falling into Japanese hands quite shortly and as you say, Australia and NZ under threat of invasion and perhaps conquest. Then Singapore fell too and Burma was invaded and IJN elements started to poke their nose into the Indian Ocean, a sea where the major British bases were on the shores of an India seething on the edge of rebellion before the war, with colonial Africa full of natives developing their own anticolonial movements--the late Russian invasion putting Stalin into bed with the British and now the USA at least would mean Communist activists would be ordered to cooperate with colonial authorities and hold off on active subversion, but they remained a long term threat to British rule, unless Britain were prepared to give up on that.

BUT--what the Japanese, and Hitler for that matter, failed to reckon with was that the Allies were motivated to tolerate ongoing losses, in the long term reckoning that eventually, the superior resources of these powers would halt Axis expansion and start to push back, and once that day of turning point came, there would be nothing objective the Axis could do (barring the science fictional invention of some wonder weapon) to prevent being eventually steamrollered. If the German U-boats and surface raiders could have choked all Atlantic commerce, maybe Britain could be forced out of the war--but the RN was doing well in the Battle of the Atlantic against Hitler's worst efforts, and now the untouched USN Atlantic fleet had the gloves off. As noted, the defense of CONUS could be managed on the Pacific with no fleet elements whatsoever, whereas some would surely be evacuated and saved.

The OTL prioritization of Europe over the Pacific would still be good policy. All the US has to do is hold off actual invasion of the Pacific shore, which is extremely hard for Japan to attempt and relatively easy to defend against, and start building new ultramodern ships with design informed by recent combat experience. In the Atlantic, the USN was mainly in the business of escorting convoys--failure to accept that led to the "second happy hunting time" for the U-boats on the US Atlantic coast, but eventually the Navy, resistant as they were to being stuck with this inglorious task, worked out quite effective defenses driving the German subs largely to ground. Clearly US naval assets being rebuilt could be earmarked for an eventual breakout into the Pacific again, in concentrated force.

There would be no reason for Americans to lose morale to the point they give up on the notion that eventually US forces shall prevail, and take back all losses, and eventually roll on over other Japanese conquests and arrive to force the Home Islands to come to US dictated terms. There was not a damn thing Japan could do to knock us out.

As for the war not being fun...war is war and people had much to fear, in the form of beloved young men never returning home or being crippled.

But your idea that rationing was demoralizing for instance fails to take into account that prior to the war breaking out, the USA was still crippled by hangovers of the great depression. Whereas between the draft and volunteerism depleting the male traditional workforce and a huge surge in demand for a high paced war production economy on the home front, what "rationing" actually represented was a guarantee of minimum food and other needs met (housing was a severe wartime crisis, but people made do) that resulted in a large number of people eating better than they had in a decade or more, and no one faced starvation any more.

US production levels were such that rationing cut into luxury, but the allocated levels, maintained in fact by adequate production, were quite generously nutritious. (The British public, under more severe rationing, also objectively ate better, in the sense of a medically balanced diet, than they ever had--wartime children famously were quite healthy).

What "rationing" meant actually was better equality between citizens than ever before, shared inconvenience, no severe hardships for anyone.

Meanwhile, in North American security, the authorities managing the war effort could quite comfortably balance the claims of war priority versus civil content and morale, and the more organized and developed the war economy was, the more scope there was for both guns and butter. The USA did not push anywhere near its limits OTL, and the worse Pacific situation does little to change that balance.

Knowing then that the war plan is to defeat Hitler first, and then turn to stomping out Japan in due time, all your scenarios of morale-wrecking losses would have little bearing on American homefront morale. If the turning of the tide in Africa, the Med, and the Soviet front that late 1942 brought OTL comes soon enough, that will be where the good war news comes from, and progress against Hitler is warrant enough to justify the US home front belief that the USA and allies will prevail eventually. It might not be until say 1950, but meanwhile, aside from the privations, risks and horrors of war itself, even American servicemembers are living better than many of them did in the peacetime Depression years. There is a lot more to hope for.

Financially for instance. All these newly built war production plants hired people for wages, and with rationing, there was little to spend the accumulating surplus money on. But the government wanted people to buy War Bonds. Well, why not? They couldn't do much else with their wages anyway, with the prices of rationed goods kept in line with wages by the wartime rationing/price control administration. Worst case, the money might go poof in runaway inflation or some other postwar financial mess. But in fact, the US government had quite credible means of paying off the war bonds, no matter how massive they became, and in the short run it gave the military-industrial complex essentially a blank check to do any damn thing. Like the Manhattan Project for instance. Postwar, those bonds were the foundation of fiscal security and fed into the massive consumer demand boom which fed back to strong job markets at increasing wages.

The longer the war drags on, the larger these negotiable and solid nest egg investments are for postwar. Assuming people have some confidence the US system will not renege on wartime promises--and they are still electing governments democratically on schedule all through the war--they have little to fear, beyond ongoing losses of loved ones to be sure.

Will American citizens in the middle of the war know all that? No, a lot of people did worry that postwar the economy would go pear shaped again. But I think the longer the war goes on, the more of a general mood of solidarity would prevail among most US publics. Everyone has been well taken care of so far, there is no reason to fear any sudden worsening, the worst thing is fearing the message saying some son, boyfriend, husband or father is not coming home, or coming home crippled. But that is blamed on Hitler and the Japanese war lords, not on domestic wickedness.

No, if we stipulate the IJN can Mary Sue their way into even more sweeping and crushing control of the Pacific without bankrupting themselves, and prevail so terribly, I don't think that changes the long term balance of power at all. The Big Three Allies all can survive, and all will be turning back to the Pacific with redoubled and war-seasoned massive force by and by, at a moment and in a manner of their choosing, and no one in the USA, Britain or Soviet Union will want to pull the plug before Japan is well and truly defeated, nor can Japan parley these massive early conquests into permanent, sustainable strength to fight off the USA, Soviet Union returning in force to the Pacific front, and remnant Commonwealth/Empire forces. If they have to retake Australia, NZ and Hawaii, so be it.

The longer the war goes on, the earlier in it (relative to eventual V-J day) the eventual success of the Manhattan Project becomes relevant. Probably the Trinity test is well before a B-29 (Silverplate version) can reach any Japanese Home Island city, so the sober calculation will be that a decent inventory of the damn things be built up first, say 20 or so, and then the USN will set about using them in the island hopping program--just nuke Iwo Jima's major bases wholesale, and then invade to mop up. Horribly, US forces will learn sad lessons about fallout contamination the hard way, and after tragic and avoidable losses, strategy for use of atomic bombs effectively as a force multiplier will be shaken out in light of this bitter experience.

Then perhaps, seeing their doom approaching, with the Americans setting off these monster bombs often enough to dissuade anyone from arguing we only have a limited number of them, it will be Japan that sues for terms. And perhaps, after such a long war, the Allies will grant them--provided they are sweeping and final enough. A face saving difference between "unconditional surrender" and something that is de facto amounting to the same thing can be found, if the Allies would really like to spare themselves another year or two of pointlessly costly war if a victory good enough to call total is at hand.

Or they might not surrender, in which case it is a boat race between Soviet based land offensives against the overseas deployments into China versus USN island hopping converging on the home islands and cutting them off with a commerce raiding noose, soon supplemented with one city after another going the way of Hiroshima/Nagasaki OTL. At some point, if no Japanese authority cracks and offers terms, their machine will crack and break down anyway. By then the Manhattan Project improvisations for fissile material production will have shaken down and been expanded in the most cost effective way and the USA has got a reliable A-bomb production line going, along with incremental improvement in the B-29 or perhaps earlier deployment of the B-36 to drop the things.

One way or another, Japan is going down eventually. You can argue a heavier blow earlier means this happens later and with more widespread damage done.

This idea you have that it depends on cracking US civil morale with a heavy enough blow to daunt is exactly how all the Axis leadership thought, and whether it was in Britain, in Russia or the USA, they never seemed to grasp that going too far would call forth resolution to see the war through to victory, their having proven they could not be lived with peacefully. Nothing you suggest seems to meaningfully change that equation!
 
So the japanese ruling class planed to collectively shoot itself in the head all along? I don't think so.
Again I hope in 22 pages, someone has clarified this already, but the actions of the Japanese ruling circles were rational in view of their world view, which failed to comprehend that the apparent cowardice and softness of liberal and Communists their fascist notions assured them made their foes inferior and weak, had some kind of steel beneath it they did not reckon on.

Victory for the allies in WWII was a matter of all the allies taking a severe beating and not then giving up, and the Big Three were able to do this because they had strategic depth.

Everyone going into the war believed that people in general, but especially those enemy bad guys, would surrender to terror. Italian, British and American theory of strategic bombing focused on the idea that if death comes unstoppably from above, a civil populace would curl up and die, shiver and hand over victory to whoever could so terrify them. This aspect of strategic aerial warfare is massively disproven, again and again and again. The anti-Western resistance in Vietnam did not surrender to a terror bombing campaign equivalent to the firepower of all weapons in WWII concentrated on them. As a general thing, it is in fact pretty much impossible to surrender to bombing anyway--how does that work, where does an individual citizen whose morale is broken go for relief? They can't override their domestic authorities, this gets them shot for treason piecemeal. Either they snap out of it (suffering terrible PTSD all their lives of course, but able to soldier on) or get put down--fact is, most people however traumatized, soldier on. It is not like a foe who has massacred your family and destroyed your home is actually endearing themselves to you, is it?

The British endured the Blitz and V-weapon attack campaigns. Axis subjects kept right on producing war materiel whether they were loyal "Aryans" or brutalized slaves, the latter sabotaging stuff when they could but being watched, generally churned out the goods anyway, despite day and night Allied bombing. Japanese endured massive firebombings.

Everyone things our morale won't crack because we have Right on our side, but theirs surely will because their system is wicked. It never works.

If Australia or New Zealand surrender in your scenario it is because the Japanese muster the force to credibly defeat their defense forces in detail, on the ground, foot by foot. It will not be because the Aussies and NZ's are soft comfort-loving, insufficiently tough surrender koalas or kiwis. No one else, who is not subjected face to face with overwhelming ground invaders who have already defeated their defending army, will surrender just because they are scared.

So it has to turn back to the question of, can Japan knock all the allies out, or will any of the allies calculate they are able to live happily and securely leaving the Japanese their ill gotten gains of conquest unchallenged, versus can they win and defeat Japan in detail? The cost of doing the latter is high, but you seem to forget people are going to reckon the cost of an expanded Japanese empire grown fatter on conquests turning on them yet again later will also be high.

The Japanese commanders believed that liberals were too undisciplined, lacked military virtues, and could be bullied into doing anything, and that was their mistake. The European fascists thought the same way. And that was their mistake!
 
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