Japanese in SA

There is a historical precedent for this. Twice in the 20th Century Japan attempted to obtain port access in Mexico for its navy. The first was a negotiation with Mexico for a coaling/replenishment station. that was squelched by the US via diplomatic & economic pressure. the second was a bit more subtle, where a IJN naval officer used his family business connections to take 'commercial' control of a Mexican Pacific port and improve it. Again the US pressured the Mexican government into refusal.
 

Flubber

Banned
I guess the timing would be key here. If everything hits the fan in late '41 the US might not have as much time to prepare for the attack, or flex its diplomatic muscles prior to it. Afterwards... it's a different story, but the damage might already be done.


Not much time to prepare for an attack in 1941? The US had been preparing for an attack on the Canal before the damn thing was finished. The purchase of the Virgin Islands in 1917 had been done to preempt the slight chance that Imperial Germany would place a naval base in range of the Canal. Hell, the Canal even had two long range, early warning radars in place by 1939 well before any location in the continental United States did.

As you obviously have no idea concerning the whats and whens of the defenses of the Panama Canal Zone, use this link to start learning about them.

The US in the '30s thwarted both official and "unofficial" attempts by Japan to gain only the commercial control of ports in Mexico because of threats such control implied. If the US during the depths of the Great Depression was able to strong arm a nation like Mexico over commercial issues, the US will have no trouble scuppering actual military basing agreements between Japan and whatever group of Andean assclowns it approaches.

I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about what sort of an "attack" on the Canal Japan's proposed South American allies could launch or host.
 

katchen

Banned
Just remember that the US has at least one, maybe two other alternatives for getting warships into the Pacific that Japan is not expecting. The Canadians have proven that it is feasible to keep the Northwest Passage open with icebreakers for at least a few months of the year. And the Russians regularly run convoys through the Northeast Passage north of Siberia. It is both easier and quicker to remodel a few destroyers into icebreakers than it is to repair the Panama Canal. And Dutch Harbor AK is an excellent anchorage. And the Alaskan North Slope has easily drilled oil to say nothing of the already developed Norman Wells oilfield on the Mackenzie River that can be barged down to Aklavik. Nobody worried about the environment or oil spills during the dark days of World War II.
Roads and railroads to consolidate and elaborate a Northwest Passage will take a little longer. But remember, ice roads are easy to build, and supplies even things such as railroad rail can be brought in and stockpiled on ice roads in the winter for when construction season starts after spring breakup. Eventually, if there are sufficient roads built to sufficient anchorages to provide oil to enough icebreakers, it might even be possible to keep the Northwest Passage open in the winter, making the Panama Canal obsolete.
(In fact that was what the experiment with the icebreaking oil tanker, the SS Manhattan (just an ordinary oil tanker retrofitted with an icebreaking bow that handled the sea ice well) was all about in 1969 after oil was discovered at Prudhoe Bay and there was a question of whether the Alaska Pipeline would be built. )
So yes, don't count the Northwest Passage out if it comes down to a choice between that and Cape Horn or the Cape of Good Hope. It never did OTTL, so Alaska did not become a national security priorty. But ATTL, it could have, and with enough money and enough labor, it and the Canadian Arctic (several roads across the Canadian Arctic to the Arctic Ocean would have been needed to supply a Northwest Passage) could have been developed quite quickly. It would not have been as hard as the Burma and Ledo Roads through mountain and rainforest.
 
Not much time to prepare for an attack in 1941? The US had been preparing for an attack on the Canal before the damn thing was finished. The purchase of the Virgin Islands in 1917 had been done to preempt the slight chance that Imperial Germany would place a naval base in range of the Canal.
Irrelevant. The canal opened in 1915, so I don’t know how you keep track of dates to say “before it was finished.”
Hell, the Canal even had two long range, early warning radars in place by 1939 well before any location in the continental United States did.
The two SCR-271 were of the same kind as the long range radar deployed at Pearl Harbor. Any aircraft flying below 1000 ft would be undetected. And they were set up in 1940.
As you obviously have no idea concerning the whats and whens of the defenses of the Panama Canal Zone, use this link to start learning about them.
I did know what the overall defenses consisted of. Nothing drastically different from PH.

Your moronic patronizing has so far been useless. You’ve failed to add anything of value to the discussion, and the dates you're giving are off. As you obviously know about the Canal’s defenses only through what you learned from a quick Google search, which leads to a site that can’t even spell words properly in its articles, I suggest you take a trip to your library and look for this: “Guarding the United States and its Outposts, Stetson Conn, Rose C. Engelman, Byron Fairchild, Eds.” It might help you learn a little more.
The US in the '30s thwarted both official and "unofficial" attempts by Japan to gain only the commercial control of ports in Mexico because of threats such control implied. If the US during the depths of the Great Depression was able to strong arm a nation like Mexico over commercial issues, the US will have no trouble scuppering actual military basing agreements between Japan and whatever group of Andean assclowns it approaches.
Mexico? The country that got half its land taken by the US?

Mexico? The country that could still get invaded by the US, even if Japan somehow destroyed the entire USN?

Jeez, I wonder why they would give in…

Don’t group CA and the Caribbean with SA on this. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, before WWII the US was not the almighty leader down there that you pretend to make it.
I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear about what sort of an "attack" on the Canal Japan's proposed South American allies could launch or host.
And I missed the part where you were nominated to speak for the group. If you really want to know how, be quiet and wait for the TL.

Just remember that the US has at least one, maybe two other alternatives for getting warships into the Pacific that Japan is not expecting. The Canadians have proven that it is feasible to keep the Northwest Passage open with icebreakers for at least a few months of the year. And the Russians regularly run convoys through the Northeast Passage north of Siberia. It is both easier and quicker to remodel a few destroyers into icebreakers than it is to repair the Panama Canal. And Dutch Harbor AK is an excellent anchorage. And the Alaskan North Slope has easily drilled oil to say nothing of the already developed Norman Wells oilfield on the Mackenzie River that can be barged down to Aklavik. Nobody worried about the environment or oil spills during the dark days of World War II.
Roads and railroads to consolidate and elaborate a Northwest Passage will take a little longer. But remember, ice roads are easy to build, and supplies even things such as railroad rail can be brought in and stockpiled on ice roads in the winter for when construction season starts after spring breakup. Eventually, if there are sufficient roads built to sufficient anchorages to provide oil to enough icebreakers, it might even be possible to keep the Northwest Passage open in the winter, making the Panama Canal obsolete.
(In fact that was what the experiment with the icebreaking oil tanker, the SS Manhattan (just an ordinary oil tanker retrofitted with an icebreaking bow that handled the sea ice well) was all about in 1969 after oil was discovered at Prudhoe Bay and there was a question of whether the Alaska Pipeline would be built. )
So yes, don't count the Northwest Passage out if it comes down to a choice between that and Cape Horn or the Cape of Good Hope. It never did OTTL, so Alaska did not become a national security priorty. But ATTL, it could have, and with enough money and enough labor, it and the Canadian Arctic (several roads across the Canadian Arctic to the Arctic Ocean would have been needed to supply a Northwest Passage) could have been developed quite quickly. It would not have been as hard as the Burma and Ledo Roads through mountain and rainforest.

Excellent points. I'll keep them in mind.
 
Reality is not a game of Axis & Allies.

Even in Axis & Allies, using the optional expansion diplomatic rules, as a Japanese player you'd be left with unsupported allies with minimal forces being curbstomped by a US player that had the opportunity to use his ground and land-based air forces overland while he is still building up a bigger US Navy.:p

Peru has a large Japanese minority

How large was it in the 1930s and 40s compared to the general population?:confused: And comparing those numbers to today?

Your moronic patronizing(1) has so far been useless. You’ve failed to add anything of value to the discussion, and the dates you're giving are off.

1) Bolding mine:eek:

Easy there. If you are going to do a TL, and do it well, you have to be LESS caustic than your critics, not more. Otherwise, you risk losing what all artists (and writers are artists, after all:)) must have: Their audience.;) (Thank you Leo Genn)

Mexico? The country that got half its land taken by the US?

The Native Americans of Utah, Nevada, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would like a word with you.:rolleyes:
EDIT: I forgot Colorado:eek:

Mexico? The country that could still get invaded by the US, even if Japan somehow destroyed the entire USN?

:D Yeah, that Mexico. The same Mexico that Dow'ed the Axis and railed troops to California in WWII to aid in West Coast defense.:cool:

Jeez, I wonder why they would give in…

Because Mexicans remember both the War of Yankee Aggression as well as Cinco de Mayo?:cool:

Don’t group CA and the Caribbean with SA on this. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, before WWII the US was not the almighty leader down there that you pretend to make it.

The USA NEVER had the influence over SA that it did in CA and the Caribbean, of course. Argentina is somewhat bigger a mouthful:mad: (and more distant) than Haiti, obviously. OTOH, the USA has been seen as the Colossus of the North since well before WWI, nevermind WWII. I'm not certain how you define "The Almighty Leader" regarding the SA countries, because AFAIK the US has never been that.:confused:

And I missed the part where you were nominated to speak for the group. If you really want to know how, be quiet and wait for the TL.

Freedom of Speech/Expression is permitted within AH.com, provided it does not break rules of good behavior, or engage in outright violation of decent standards against anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia, racism, and so on.

If you find that criticism inhibits your creative process, perhaps you might want to consider availing yourself of our most excellent Author's Forum?:)
 
Last edited:
How large was it in the 1930s and 40s compared to the general population?:confused: And comparing those numbers to today?
Not very large back then. But the crowd that I have in mind for the fascist party was actually anti-Japanese, so that'll be another interesting hurdle to get over.

The Native Americans of Utah, Nevada, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would like a word with you.:rolleyes:

Because Mexicans remember both the War of Yankee Aggression as well as Cinco de Mayo?:cool:
Ha! You make me smile. :D

:D Yeah, that Mexico. The same Mexico that Dow'ed the Axis and railed troops to California in WWII to aid in West Coast defense.:cool:

Only about six months after PH! But I still wonder, should their love-hate relationship with the US, and their uneasy closeness, have had a part to play there?

The USA NEVER had the influence over SA that it did in CA and the Caribbean, of course. Argentina is somewhat bigger a mouthful:mad: (and more distant) than Haiti, obviously. OTOH, the USA has been seen as the Colossus of the North since well before WWI, nevermind WWII. I'm not certain how you define "The Almighty Leader" regarding the SA countries, because AFAIK the US has never been that.:confused:
Perhaps “Almighty leader” is not an optimal term. Regardless, as you’ve correctly pointed out, the assumption that US influence in the region could be the same as with Haiti (to use your example) is just flawed. That’s where the “surely,” and “I’m certain” expressed wouldn’t hold up. Before the 1900’s US influence in the region was minimal, if at all considered in local foreign affairs.
1) Bolding mine:eek:

Easy there. If you are going to do a TL, and do it well, you have to be LESS caustic than your critics, not more. Otherwise, you risk losing what all artists (and writers are artists, after all:)) must have: Their audience.;) (Thank you Leo Genn)

Freedom of Speech/Expression is permitted within AH.com, provided it does not break rules of good behavior, or engage in outright violation of decent standards against anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia, racism, and so on.

If you find that criticism inhibits your creative process, perhaps you might want to consider availing yourself of our most excellent Author's Forum?:)
Criticism is not an impediment. In fact, I welcome it. I’ve got a TL in the pre-1900 section, where everyone expresses disagreements, queries, etc. but towards a useful discussion. I’m sure you’ve read some of the other comments in this thread; they all raise points with which they have concerns, and valid ones at that. But you don’t see: “Reality is not a game of Axis & Allies,” “Let me also suggest you look at the map of the Pacific…” or “As you obviously have no idea concerning the whats and whens…" coming from others.

That, my dear friend, is nothing but condescending patronization. Not criticism.
 
Last edited:
Top