Japanese Colonize Western North America

OK, so are there any alt timelines were Japan colonizes the portion of North America west of the Rocky Mountains? Preferably not the only results I can find about Japanese western USA - The Man in the High Castle.

I doubt they could expand past this area before the USA come knocking. And obviously the shipbuilding and other technology would have to be in place when the Japanese decide to sail east. Would they beat Columbus?

Remember, Japan didn't become isolationist until the 1600s. Here it wouldn't even come up in conversation.

This would cause major differences in the factions during the Sengoku Period (assuming it's still called that), as different daimyo hold on to different colonies in America. The areas that fallen daimyo rule over could claim their independence until the group as a whole becomes a new nation, separate from Japan. The resources of western North America could allow them to be self-sufficient, especially if this nation still exists when gold is found in the 1800s.

With a self-sufficient nation over the fence, how would the US react? Would this nation even end up becoming states, so no USA? Or just midget USA? Would the racism of the time whip up Americans so much that they elect a war-hungry president who believes fully in manifest destiny?

If WWII went the same way as in our timeline, the large amount of Japanese descendants in the US could lead to even more large-scale anti-Japanese riots and prejudice.
 
Are you suggesting this happens prior to the Sengoku Jidai, or that Tokugawa loses or isn't as isolationist?
 
Are you suggesting this happens prior to the Sengoku Jidai, or that Tokugawa loses or isn't as isolationist?

For some reason I never think of when the Sengoku Jidai starts, I only remember when it ended.
I was aiming for Japan to beat Columbus - so before 1492 - but Sengoku began in about 1467. That's tough to reconcile, since you can't be caught up in a civil war and be establishing far-away colonies at the same time.

And if Japan actually manages the colonization feat, they wouldn't be isolationist at all, no matter who ends up unifying Japan.
 
For some reason I never think of when the Sengoku Jidai starts, I only remember when it ended.
I was aiming for Japan to beat Columbus - so before 1492 - but Sengoku began in about 1467. That's tough to reconcile, since you can't be caught up in a civil war and be establishing far-away colonies at the same time.

And if Japan actually manages the colonization feat, they wouldn't be isolationist at all, no matter who ends up unifying Japan.

Yeah, I meant rather as instigation.

Top of my head, have Oda Nobunaga survive Honno-ji, and/or have Toyotomi look at colonization instead of Korea/China as the safety valve. The latter can be easily imagined but the timing's a bit tight...the former fits his (Oda's) character...he was the right combination of curious and ruthless to get a massive project like that kick-started, plus he was already into reverse engineering European techs, so he could force the naval leap.

Edit: you don't even need it by 1492, though. Europeans didn't colonize western NA until long after Columbus was dead and (kinda) buried.
 
I don't see Japan having anything reason colonise Western North America or even sailing there. And travel is too long and difficult for this.

And even if Japanese manage found colonies, this causes much butterflies. No United States, no World Wars at least not such as we know these.
 
It might just be because of Samurai Warriors, but I want to keep that image of Nobunaga walking into the flames alive. It was pretty cool, and I can't see someone as ruthless as Nobunaga lasting that much longer. *shrug*

I would have Toyotomi realize that it's better to search for a new land instead of take on Korea, what with China being there and all. Even if China didn't help Korea, Toyotomi might think it was too big of a risk.

Or maybe Korea isn't a peninsula - it's two more Japanese islands. Then again, that would most likely make the Sengoku period longer. That's ASB though.

Poor Tokugawa.

I don't see Japan having anything reason colonise Western North America or even sailing there. And travel is too long and difficult for this.

And even if Japanese manage found colonies, this causes much butterflies. No United States, no World Wars at least not such as we know these.

They wouldn't know until they got there, and this is alt history, so they do find...something. Whatever, just imagine something. And I did say that they would have (somehow) developed the tech they needed for reliable, safe journeys.

I touched on the US in my first message. I even questioned if the US would be only half of its current-day size in our world. There might be a Ameri-Japanese war instead of the US Civil War.

Poor Abe...and his beard.
 
Maybe its just that I've played one too many rounds of EU4, but in a scenario like this, i wonder if Japan might not be better off looking towards the South Pacific rather than North America.

Japanese New Guiana or Australia, with a century or two to stew in its juices, could well outpace the Home Islands.
 
Ah yes, one of my favourite scenarios, so much I've spent a few years on and off developing the history of a Japanese state there (well Pacific Northwest), it's culture, it's language (a few really weird-sounding Japanese dialects), and it's people.

OK, so are there any alt timelines were Japan colonizes the portion of North America west of the Rocky Mountains? Preferably not the only results I can find about Japanese western USA - The Man in the High Castle.

I doubt they could expand past this area before the USA come knocking. And obviously the shipbuilding and other technology would have to be in place when the Japanese decide to sail east. Would they beat Columbus?

Remember, Japan didn't become isolationist until the 1600s. Here it wouldn't even come up in conversation.

This would cause major differences in the factions during the Sengoku Period (assuming it's still called that), as different daimyo hold on to different colonies in America. The areas that fallen daimyo rule over could claim their independence until the group as a whole becomes a new nation, separate from Japan. The resources of western North America could allow them to be self-sufficient, especially if this nation still exists when gold is found in the 1800s.

With a self-sufficient nation over the fence, how would the US react? Would this nation even end up becoming states, so no USA? Or just midget USA? Would the racism of the time whip up Americans so much that they elect a war-hungry president who believes fully in manifest destiny?

If WWII went the same way as in our timeline, the large amount of Japanese descendants in the US could lead to even more large-scale anti-Japanese riots and prejudice.

I can tell you more about mine even though it's...complex. You are right the Rockies are the natural boundary for it--the Continental Divide is probably as far as they'd get, although depending on how aggressive Spain (or whoever rules Mexico) is as well as other Europeans from the East, they might not even get as far. The Continental Divide makes for a good border, IMO.

Let's start--the Japanese (and other East Asians) already had ships that could reliably reach the New World. There are small ships from Japan that washed up repeatedly anywhere from Kamchatka to California, and that went on for millennia. Bigger ships wouldn't need much more tech to do. They'd be about as reliable as contemporary European ships sailing in one of the harshest environments of the northern hemisphere, the North Pacific Gyre.

Isolationist, no, but it's very telling the minimal interaction Japan had with Hokkaido and Sakhalin (Karafuto) outside of some trade here and there. If Japan ever wanted to colonise anything, those two islands are it. Not the New World.

But say they do. How? I'd say you need the Mongols to defeat the Japanese and completely shake up the system there. There are probably good earlier PODs, but that's the latest IMO for an independent Japanese discovery of the New World. Let's say you have an upswing in monasteries, especially the Pure Land School. Let's say you can even popularise the process some Japanese monastics did of going out in a boat and letting the ocean claim you. Now let's say you have an overdramatic, wealthy monk, a Sasaki Doyo-type, who wants his death to be the most over the top thing ever. He sails out, loaded with stuff--food, goods, sutras, and a retinue (preferably a shipbuilder), and the current sweeps him away. And it sweeps him far. Next thing you know, most of them are dead or dying, but they crash into a beautiful yet rugged land. They've died and found the Pure Land promised to them--actually they've found Alaska, and they'll find that out soon.

Now, there needs to be incremental steps. I think monasteries in the Kurils (Chishima) would make a good stepping stone. From there, Kamchatka is very close, and from there, Alaska not far. More castaways will show up in the New World once Japanese activity in the north increases. I say the Pure Land school of Buddhism because it seems like it would be good for converting American Indians, Siberians, etc., though probably less brutal than Spanish missions.

Now back to the Mongols. Once they're overthrown, they've left behind the relics of their system, as well as perhaps changed the Japanese psyche and cultural outlook. They'll look outwards much more, and that's why the northern islands are worthy of their attention. In fact, Sakhalin was apparently even attacked by the Mongols to confirm tributary status amongst the people there. Our restored royal family must be led by leaders with the ideals of Emperor Go-Daigo with more attention paid to political reality that Go-Daigo lacked. Hence why the Sengoku era will never occur, the daimyo are firmly under Kyoto's thumb, etc. It will be a much more top-down approach.

As for our monks, they found a monastery amongst the natives, while a few return to Japan (or the Kurils) to inform others of their news. Is it the Pure Land? Is it something more? And there's wealth to be made from the fish stocks, the fur trade, etc. And there's land there, and people no longer need to starve at home! And the more people explore, the more they like the look of the place. In some parts you can even grow rice!

All this can occur by the late 15th century at latest.

Now for the fate of the colonists, the vast distance of the nation might mean it has to be divided between north and south, and possibly central. I think that by proximity to European powers, it will pick up on European ideologies that might spread, and eventually develop a desire for independence. If that's not doable, then perhaps a set-up like Canada where the Japanese Emperor remains the sovereign over the otherwise independent country with Japan having minor influence. But I think the frontier mindset that will develop, the Pure Land Buddhist heritage, combined with proximity to European powers and states fighting for independence, might make these people think differently. Many settlers might also be people fleeing natural disasters (famine) in Japan. Japan was and is a very overpopulated country--that's why it sent so many people to the US and elsewhere once immigration was really opened.

Incidentally, I've wondered what their reactions to the 1700 Cascadia earthquake might be. As the largest known earthquake in North American history, occuring in a well-colonised land, it might be quite interesting what happens. I've estimated 50,000 dead, possibly more.

Manifest Destiny is an odd concept. A US-analogue might have to settle for OTL's Sonora as a Pacific outlet. Or alternatively, annex the whole damn place wholescale, but that's pretty unlikely, since the population would be probably no less than 1/4 of the US's size.

I could deal with Indian Wars, too. Samurai fighting Indians seems like it would be straight out of a movie, but it would probably end up the same way the US did most of it in the early days--kill and burn their stuff, they kill and burn your stuff. One major change is that there will be Japanese horses coming across the Rockies at some point, strongly influencing tribal migrations as early as the 17th century. That'll change the linguistic structure of the Great Basin and definitely the Plains.

Yeah, I meant rather as instigation.

Top of my head, have Oda Nobunaga survive Honno-ji, and/or have Toyotomi look at colonization instead of Korea/China as the safety valve. The latter can be easily imagined but the timing's a bit tight...the former fits his (Oda's) character...he was the right combination of curious and ruthless to get a massive project like that kick-started, plus he was already into reverse engineering European techs, so he could force the naval leap.

Toyotomi's idea of invading Taiwan makes more sense. Or attacking Luzon like the Spanish were so worried he would do. If he goes to the New World, he'll probably end up pissing off Spain sooner or later so he might as well as attack Luzon anyway.

But by that time, Japan has better places to colonise anyway. Hokkaido and Sakhalin are closer and offer most all the same things you can get out of the Pacific Northwest or California (which is even further), plus there's already established links there which don't exist in the New World.

Maybe its just that I've played one too many rounds of EU4, but in a scenario like this, i wonder if Japan might not be better off looking towards the South Pacific rather than North America.

Japanese New Guiana or Australia, with a century or two to stew in its juices, could well outpace the Home Islands.

There's not much there the West Coast does't have, plus it's much further. Plus they'd die by the thousands in New Guinea/North Australia's climate.
 
Maybe its just that I've played one too many rounds of EU4, but in a scenario like this, i wonder if Japan might not be better off looking towards the South Pacific rather than North America.

Japanese New Guiana or Australia, with a century or two to stew in its juices, could well outpace the Home Islands.

Yeah, I made a thread about the Japanese colonizing Indonesia and Australia a while back. I remember talk about how much of Australia is desert, which I wasn't aware of.

As for the current/American question, I also imagined them still going after the rest of the OTL Japanese islands as well. Might as well collect the whole set!

All this colonization would take a higher Japanese population. Hmm.
 
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Yeah, I made a thread about the Japanese colonizing Indonesia and Australia a while back. I remember talk about how much of Australia is desert, which I wasn't aware of.

As for the current/American question, I also imagined them still going after the rest of the OTL Japanese islands as well. Might as well collect the whole set!

All this colonization would take a higher Japanese population. Hmm.

Not really, considering as I said, Japan was overpopulated and it tended to take the slightest disaster to have millions starving with hundreds of thousands of deaths.
 
Not really, considering as I said, Japan was overpopulated and it tended to take the slightest disaster to have millions starving with hundreds of thousands of deaths.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that Japan was crowded at that time.

I would say that disaster survivors might consider fleeing to NA to escape the danger, but the Northwest and California have earthquakes as well.
 
Sorry, I wasn't aware that Japan was crowded at that time.

I would say that disaster survivors might consider fleeing to NA to escape the danger, but the Northwest and California have earthquakes as well.

When you have hundreds of thousands of people starving, or just hundreds of thousands homeless, might as well move them there and make them someone else's problem. Tell them to start a new life there. They can deal with the earthquakes there later (and as I noted, that will include 1700 Cascadia), as well as a nice amount of volcanic eruptions (in Washington/Oregon) during the late 18th/through the 19th century if accounts are to be believed. Most of those aren't anything major (aside from the occasional lumber camp/backwoods village), although the Tacoma area was apparently hit by lahars a few centuries ago.
 
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