Japanese Chinese Dynasty

RousseauX

Donor
But they did adopt a lot of the cultural and governance tradition.
Yeah, that's the point I'm making

But the Japanese feudal system was a fairly new development in 17th century. The Japanese could have adapted it, to adopt the Chinese system of government.

But they already were much closer to Chinese than Manchus.
The Shogunate itself has being around since the...13th century I think. And that creates a major contradiction. The Shogunate is nominally the subordinate and derives his legitimacy from the Japanese emperor, but if he decides to declare himself the Son of Heaven, then that puts him nominally -above- the Japanese emperor and I'm not sure that's acceptable to the Japanese nobility themselves.

But the more immediate concern is simply political, the Daimyos are going to want lands on the mainland to rule as their own, which means that they have to sideline the centralized Chinese bureaucracy. So basically both of the pillars of the Chinese systems are unacceptable to have even if Hideyoshi does take China somehow. I mean maybe eventually they come around but I don't think the Japanese possessions on the mainland are going to outlast whichever Shogun who take it.
 
Last edited:
Why not just move the Japanese emperor to the Forbidden City? If the Tenno is essentially powerless anyway, the Shogun could do it if he thinks that it will give his empire legitimacy.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Why not just move the Japanese emperor to the Forbidden City? If the Tenno is essentially powerless anyway, the Shogun could do it if he thinks that it will give his empire legitimacy.

Maybe he could, I just don't think that's going to work.

This is basically the East Asian version of what England wanted to do to France. Works for the English nobility who were French speaking, originated in France, and always held large swath of France anyway, it's basically just Angevin Empire 2.0. England being a sidelined possession of a France centered Monarchy works. The Asian analogue doesn't work very well for the Japanese nobility which have never so much as set foot in China before, Japan needs to be at the center of the empire.
 
The Manchu also adopted a lot of the cultural and governance traditions of Mongols.

The institute of shogunate was from 12th century. But the realm of Oda Nobunaga was NOT 12th century Minamoto shogunate. Nor was Nobunaga restoring the 15th century Muromachi shogunate. No - the realm he was creating was something new, and he was making it up as he went.
 
So if we assume states able to perform at the level of the OTL Ming and Joseon present when Japan invaded, the results would likely be limited.

Therefor the crisis in at least China would need to be much worse, and would need to be unusually long. Perhaps not even a crisis, then, but another division of China following a crisis.

Basically, yes. The PoD itself would need to occur long before 1000, which would probably butterfly away the Liao, Song, Jin, Yuan, and Ming altogether.

Maybe not politically assimilated (until the 1900s), but certainly assimilated in an ethnic and cultural sense. Keep in mind that there were Han bannermen.

As for Japan establishing a dynasty in China, it seems that it would have to first create a solid presence in Korea by conquering it and totally extinguishing any native peninsular kingdom. This would happen sometimes towards the end of the Yuan dynasty in the 1300s. A couple hundred years later, Korea is solidly Japanese and the "Ming" is suffering from revolts, Mongols, and Manchus. The Ming collapses as IOTL, and the Japanese move in to snatch Manchuria and turn it into a vassal. With peace on the Yalu, some Manchu leader goes and tries to conquer China. He succeeds in taking North China and making peace with the Mongols, but is stopped around the Yangtze, with a "southern Ming" remaining. All this is happening in the late 1500s or early 1600s.

Goryeo was extremely militaristic throughout its existence, and it was probably only second to Goguryeo out of all Korean dynasties in terms of its emphasis on the military. In particular, although Gongmin managed to declare independence due to the Yuan's disintegration, he was able to consolidate his position due to various generals (specifically Choi Young and Yi Seong-gye) who had risen to prominence after repelling northern raids (Red Turban Rebellion), along with numerous wokou raids. The dynasty eventually collapsed because it was too expansionistic, as the court ordered General Yi to invade Liaodong in order to counter the Ming's claims on Goryeo's northern territories, as the state was still hyped from its successes against the Yuan. However, he eventually decided to retreat and stage a coup, as provoking China would have been suicidal, along with setting up a military dictatorship and executing Choi Young (despite showing deep respect for him) in order to avoid becoming branded as a traitor, and finally establishing Joseon in 1392.

As a result, a Japanese invasion of Goryeo might actually have resulted in a counterattack on the archipelago, which would have not gone well for both sides.
 
Last edited:
The only thing I can imagine how this will come about is through successful first Mongol-Korean expedition against Japan. That way, a closer link to the mainland can be forged and there will be possible royal marriages between Chinese, Korean and Japanese royal families. It's still be by quite a long shot, but it's a start.
 
<reads thread>

I notice a lot of people are thinking in terms of a dyanastic union between Japan and China. I find myself wondering how ambitious/successful the likes of the Wokou/倭寇 could get.
 
Top