Lateknight
Banned
Is it possible to get a Chinese dynasty from Japan and if it is whats a good Pod for this to happen?
Japanese Chinese Dynasty
- Thread starter Lateknight
- Start date
Issue is that you'd need the Japanese to *conquer* China, when they never had a real chance of doing so in this time period. (Yes, Hideyoshi tried, but he couldn't even manage Korea. China is a much larger beast.) Other than the Wokou pirates, has Japan IOTL made *any* incursions into Chinese territory before the 20th century?
They fought a war in 1894 and had a bunch of skirmishes over Taiwan a few decades earlier.
Ultimate Paragon
Banned
The only reason they had a chance was because China was in a bad way at the time.
Ultimate Paragon
Banned
They might have had some successes, but nothing that would install a Japanese dynasty. China is too big and populous to completely conquer unless you have some kind of ace-in-the-hole.
scholar
Banned
China has always been conquered by China. Almost all of the foreign dynasties that established themselves, relied on Chinese generals and soldiers to complete their conquest, and very soon became dependent upon them in a couple of generations. There's no reason to assume that a Japanese Dynasty would follow the same rules. Should a united Japan be in a position to carve a toehold on the continent and capitalize on popular discontent and disloyal and ambitious generals and gentry, it is more than possible to start a Japanese Dynasty in China.
The real problem will come shortly thereafter. Dynasties tend to lose themselves in the assimilation process and any effective control requires the central government to be in China, normally a ways inland, and close to major population centers. Very quickly any foreign dynasty would be overthrown if there's not a huge martial difference should the dynasty choose to remain "barbarian" and reject the practice of Tianxia and the Mandate of Heaven.
cpip
Gone Fishin'
Is it possible simply for intermarriage between the Japanese ruling family and one of the ruling Chinese dynasties, such that there ends up being a close relation between the two?
Neither side was entirely opposed to such things, historically; the Japanese and Koreans had some intermarriage, and several Chinese dynasties practiced some form or another.
Neither side was entirely opposed to such things, historically; the Japanese and Koreans had some intermarriage, and several Chinese dynasties practiced some form or another.
Successive Chinese dynasties post-unification in the 10th Century generally shunned marriage to 'foreigners', unless it provided some sort of political or military incentive (there was a bit of intermingling with the Mongol nobility where it suited them). What you need, therefore, is a Japanese presence and influence in or around the Empire that renders the prospect of a personal union attractive.
There was basically no Japanese/Korean intermarriage in ruling families after the beginning of the Heian period. After that, all important consorts come from branches of the Fujiwara family, except for a few very rare exceptions.
This isn't true. First, you must mean post-division. Between the 10th century and the Yuan, China was technically divided, even if the Song held maybe 90% of China for a hundred years.
The only Chinese dynasty where the imperial family intermarried with Mongol nobility was the Qing Dynasty. The Song absolutely didn't do this. The Ming rejected marital alliances with Mongols (though the imperial harem might include tribute in the form of foreign women).
It is simply the case that while a few dynasties (the only major one being the Tang) found benefits in marrying princesses to outside rulers, by the 11th century, there were no Chinese dynasties which found any benefit from marital alliances with outside countries. There's no way Japan could marry its way to power in China even if it wanted to.
I wouldn't say he couldn't manage Korea. He managed Korea quite well. It was the Chinese then getting involved that proved the undoing.
So.....for it to happen you really need more than just a simple Japan invades China. What were the conditions that allowed other fringe groups like the Manchu to conquer China? You need to get the Japanese to enjoy the same conditions
Hideyoshi would have been directly involved in China if Korea had somehow been "conquered," as his main objective had been to conquer China, India, and Southeast Asia, and initially demanded Joseon to "make way" for an invasion of China, although this was refused by the Korean court. In other words, the Chinese would have been involved, regardless of the situation, and the numerous Korean guerrilla efforts (with the navy's support) would have been more than enough to tie the Japanese down in the peninsula.
Here's what I wrote in another thread:
In other words, the Manchus succeeded precisely because of the Imjin War, which had severely exhausted both Chinese and Korean resources, along with thoroughly devastating the peninsula, while adverse climatic conditions eventually led to severe social and political turmoil. On the other hand, if Japan had decided not to invade in the late 16th century, it would have focused instead on maintaining close economic and diplomatic relations with China, Korea, and Southeast Asia, essentially eliminating the need for a major military campaign. A direct invasion of China, which would be extremely unlikely, would face a prepared Chinese military force, and would still have to go through Korea in order to prevent solely relying on the navy, ultimately resulting in a later Imjin War analogue. Even if Japan somehow managed to overcome numerous difficulties and take over China, the ruling class would still need to assimilate over several generations in order to govern such a large foreign populace, and would no longer be "Japanese" in all but name.
In addition, if the Imjin War had not occurred, China and Korea would have probably allied with each other once Nurhaci becomes a significant threat, eventually splitting most of Southern Manchuria between them. As a result, Japan would end up facing armies that would not only have been more experienced, but also have more resources to draw from.
He managed Korea as well as the US managed Afghanistan and Iraq; winning overwhelming military victories before discovering that holding the land was a bit more difficult than conquering it. As much as Chinese intervention was helpful, ultimately, the Korean contribution, first in disruption of Japanese supply lines, and later in the naval theater cannot be understated.
Military superiority is often cited as a significant factor.
Other than that, it's also noted that during the Mongol conquest, earlier struggles had resulted in the Mongols being able to bypass the Great Wall (not by going around it, as is commonly believed, but because conquest of the Jin Dynasty with the aid of the Song had given the Mongols Jin territory south of the Great Wall). In the case of the Manchus, internal weakness was also a major factor; as well in this case, the Manchus already were quite heavily Sinicized through heavy contact with the Ming.
scholar
Banned
I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would put forward the idea that Nurhaci only became bold enough to directly challenge China precisely because of the terrible condition dynasty was in, and he could act with relative impunity from his flanks because of the Imjin War's strain on Korea. If it had not occurred, Nurhaci would probably have remained relatively localized and not directly compete with China. If he did start a conquest, it would not have gone much more than a Jin/Liao-like state at its most successful.
Forget completely separate political and cultural relations for a moment. Population-wise, would it be feasible for Japan to ever get into a Hundred Years' War type conflict with northern China? I still don't quite get how England could muster up the forces to fight with France off and on for such a time. I guess it's because there were a lot of nobles on the mainland who alternatively supported the English and not.
scholar
Banned
Well, Japan can have a military presence fighting on and off for a century with a good chunk of Asia, the problem is that that good chunk of Asia will have a dramatically higher population. Unless it can get popular and domestic support - probably someone with a deep rooted blood hatred of the dominant dynasty - I doubt it would be very successful. Japan might also get a prince on their side, which might keep some popular support for the alliance, but that might not work too well. The Mandate of Heaven's key difference from Western and Islamic style monarchies is that if your kingdom has fallen and you're the only one left, most of China no longer recognizes your legitimacy, and domestically you are only legitimate in the lands you hold if you are not ruling over a famine and you win a few battles. There's no inherent and inalienable claim from blood, otherwise a good portion of the Chinese gentry would be fighting over who gets to be emperor.
However, if China didn't get involved in the Imjin War and Japan was more willing, unified, and zealous, then that war would have went on for a _very_ long time, with who ever claims the ruins of southern Korea feeling like Pyrrhus was the luckiest man alive.
I just mean numbers-wise, could the situation between Japan and China ever be comparable to that between England and France in the Hundred Years' War or in other medieval conflicts? It's still sorta mind-boggling to imagine island nations challenging huge mainland states, whether we're talking about the HYW or Japan's invasion of China in WWII.