Japanese-Australian Non Agression Pact 1943

In WW2 Australia Imperial Forces (AIF) was essentially two armies. One made up of crack well trained volunteers most of which were shipped off to fight in North Africa supporting the British. The other was made up of two or three militia divisions from the two big cities of Sydney and Melbourne. These militias were made up of young boys or reluctant conscripts press ganged into service.

WI the AIF troops serving in North Africa were sunk in transit off the Western Australia by a German raider after being recalled back to Australia? (This was an actual nightmare senario keeping Prime Minister John Curtin up at nights).

This would clearly impact upon Curtin attracting wholesale US interest in an active alliance as well as providing a effective reserve to reinforce depleted militias fighting for Port Moresby in New Guinea.

Since this was the first time Japan had withdrawn in battle in the OTL, could the capitulation of the AIF in New Guinea further enhance Japanese invincibility prompting Australia to cede more territories and sign a Non Aggression Pact with Japan?

Or does she stand alone (with NZ?) along the proposed Brisbane Line waging a bitter and ruthless war of attrition using guerrilla tactics in the Far North of the continent? Could this eventuate in a major US led sea and land campaign to preserve a naval presence in Northern Australia resulting in the Battle of Darwin?

Maybe in this ATL General MacCathur strides onto the beaches of the Australian Gold Coast to relieve the embattled ANZACs as well as to re-establish a stable supply base to begin the US War in the Pacific?

Butterflies anyone? :D
 
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Larrikin

Banned
In WW2 Australia Imperial Forces (AIF) was essentially two armies. One made up of crack well trained volunteers most of which were shipped off to fight in North Africa supporting the British. The other was made up of two or three militia divisions from the two big cities of Sydney and Melbourne. These militias were made up of young boys or reluctant conscripts press ganged into service.

The AMF consisted of over 7 divisions, plus a significant number of AIF were still in Australia, not having deployed to NA by early 1942. Backing up this were the equivalent of a further 3 divisions of Home Guard, the great majority of whom were WWI veterans.

As for press ganged, so were the soldiers of every other Army except the Indian. Then you get into the nature of the "conscripts" - many of them were like my grand father, who had volunteered and 1939 and was knocked back because he was in a reserved occupation and had 3 children under 5 and one on the way. In late 1940 he was called into the AMF, and was away for 6 years. Many, many AMF soldiers were in similar situations.
 

Blair152

Banned
In WW2 Australia Imperial Forces (AIF) was essentially two armies. One made up of crack well trained volunteers most of which were shipped off to fight in North Africa supporting the British. The other was made up of two or three militia divisions from the two big cities of Sydney and Melbourne. These militias were made up of young boys or reluctant conscripts press ganged into service.

WI the AIF troops serving in North Africa were sunk in transit off the Western Australia by a German raider after being recalled back to Australia? (This was an actual nightmare senario keeping Prime Minister John Curtin up at nights).

This would clearly impact upon Curtin attracting wholesale US interest in an active alliance as well as providing a effective reserve to reinforce depleted militias fighting for Port Moresby in New Guinea.

Since this was the first time Japan had withdrawn in battle in the OTL, could the capitulation of the AIF in New Guinea further enhance Japanese invincibility prompting Australia to cede more territories and sign a Non Aggression Pact with Japan?

Or does she stand alone (with NZ?) along the proposed Brisbane Line waging a bitter and ruthless war of attrition using guerrilla tactics in the Far North of the continent? Could this eventuate in a major US led sea and land campaign to preserve a naval presence in Northern Australia resulting in the Battle of Darwin?

Maybe in this ATL General MacCathur strides onto the beaches of the Australian Gold Coast to relieve the embattled ANZACs as well as to re-establish a stable supply base to begin the US War in the Pacific?

Butterflies anyone? :D
Why would Australia and Japan sign a non-aggression pact in 1943? It would be a slap in the face to British, Americans, Canadians, and Kiwis.
I can't think of any butterflies for your scenario to work. It's simply speaking, ASB.
 
Put it this way... if even Bard/Blair recognizes this as a near ASB scenario then you can ee how patently stupid it is.
WI the AIF troops serving in North Africa were sunk in transit off the Western Australia by a German raider after being recalled back to Australia? (This was an actual nightmare senario keeping Prime Minister John Curtin up at nights).
Err... 6th and 7th Divisions returned home in fast liners... probably able to outrun any old Merchant Raider. The 8th Division was shattered by the fall of Singapore, but something of a cadre of it remained on Australian soil and was later rebuilt with CMF troops. 9th Division remained in in North Africa until El Alemain. 1st Armoured was also still in Australia.

And the CMF were no slouches... they played their role well enough on the Kokoda track, and the force that threw the Japs back into the sea at Milne Bay was predominantly CMF.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Wow.

Bard called this ASB.

I fear you have no clue of how severe a condemnation that is.
In WW2 Australia Imperial Forces (AIF) was essentially two armies. One made up of crack well trained volunteers most of which were shipped off to fight in North Africa supporting the British. The other was made up of two or three militia divisions from the two big cities of Sydney and Melbourne. These militias were made up of young boys or reluctant conscripts press ganged into service.

WI the AIF troops serving in North Africa were sunk in transit off the Western Australia by a German raider after being recalled back to Australia? (This was an actual nightmare senario keeping Prime Minister John Curtin up at nights).

This would clearly impact upon Curtin attracting wholesale US interest in an active alliance as well as providing a effective reserve to reinforce depleted militias fighting for Port Moresby in New Guinea.

Since this was the first time Japan had withdrawn in battle in the OTL, could the capitulation of the AIF in New Guinea further enhance Japanese invincibility prompting Australia to cede more territories and sign a Non Aggression Pact with Japan?

Or does she stand alone (with NZ?) along the proposed Brisbane Line waging a bitter and ruthless war of attrition using guerrilla tactics in the Far North of the continent? Could this eventuate in a major US led sea and land campaign to preserve a naval presence in Northern Australia resulting in the Battle of Darwin?

Maybe in this ATL General MacCathur strides onto the beaches of the Australian Gold Coast to relieve the embattled ANZACs as well as to re-establish a stable supply base to begin the US War in the Pacific?

Butterflies anyone? :D
 

Cook

Banned
In WW2 Australia Imperial Forces (AIF) was essentially two armies. One made up of crack well trained volunteers most of which were shipped off to fight in North Africa supporting the British. The other was made up of two or three militia divisions from the two big cities of Sydney and Melbourne. These militias were made up of young boys or reluctant conscripts press ganged into service.

WI the AIF troops serving in North Africa were sunk in transit off the Western Australia by a German raider after being recalled back to Australia? (This was an actual nightmare senario keeping Prime Minister John Curtin up at nights).

Most of the Conscripts were put through the same level of training as the previous intakes of volunteers, the exceptions being the troops rushed to the north during the initial Japanese onslaught, and they were trained in location.

When I saw the title of the thread I initially thought it concerned Curtin’s offer to the Japanese ambassador of Australian Neutrality prior to Japan’s declaration of war in ’41.
 
The AMF was an AIF? Err, No.

Australia in peacetime had the AMF. Which was a reserve army.

The AIF was built up using volunteers from the AMF.

Conscripts served in the AMF, but could volunteer to serve overseas, which would result in a transfer to the AIF.

Basically the AMF was a home defense force and the AIF was the deployable army. Later restrictions of AMF deployments were slackened and they were deployed overseas within the Pacific theatre only.

The AIF divisions serving overseas were only a small (though important) portion of the Australian military by the time war broke out with Japan, with infantry divisions of the AMF mobilised and Armoured Divisions being formed.

Oh, and just the thought of a Japanese army invading Australia makes me laugh, think about the logistics train they would need, the number of roads that would need building and the number of trucks they would need to supply troops hundreds and thousands of kilometres from the nearest port, along with how easy it would be to intercept those supplies.
 

Cook

Banned
Oh, and just the thought of a Japanese army invading Australia makes me laugh, think about the logistics train they would need, the number of roads that would need building and the number of trucks they would need to supply troops hundreds and thousands of kilometres from the nearest port, along with how easy it would be to intercept those supplies.

This was no laughing matter in 1942. Had Japan won the Battle of the Coral Sea and taken Port Moresby they would have been in a much better position to try an attack.

An Army that had successfully stormed down the Malaya Peninsular and the Dutch East Indies would have found no insurmountable challenges in Northern Queensland. Equally, landings near Daly River by forces from Timor would have had only a short distance to travel to cut Darwin off from the south.

As to why? Japanese Victory Fever would have provided reason enough.
 

Keenir

Banned
edit:

Run. As fast and as far as you can. It is your only hope of survival.
 
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Larrikin

Banned
This was no laughing matter in 1942. Had Japan won the Battle of the Coral Sea and taken Port Moresby they would have been in a much better position to try an attack.

An Army that had successfully stormed down the Malaya Peninsular and the Dutch East Indies would have found no insurmountable challenges in Northern Queensland. Equally, landings near Daly River by forces from Timor would have had only a short distance to travel to cut Darwin off from the south.

As to why? Japanese Victory Fever would have provided reason enough.

I'm going to have to kick you here, Cook :D

We'll start with Darwin. Even allowing they could take it, effectively it gives them nothing. The nearest rail heads were Alice Springs and Mt Isa, with a single road through desert country to either of them. Both the Alice and the Isa are eminently defencible positions, with the Australian and American forces able to bring forward supplies, reinforcements, etc by rail. Additionally, the Alice is the only source of water in that area.

As for north Queensland, the IJA managed their run through Malaya because western Malaya had a fully developed road net, and lots and lots of bicycles that were requisitioned from the civil population. Once again, the defensive forces can bring forward what they need by rail, the Japanese have one bad road.

Finally, the IJA didn't have the slightest interest in trying to invade Australia. Everytime the IJN suggested it they were told "in your dreams". The IJA just did not have the available manpower to do it. That's why the Nankai Shitai was about half a divisions worth of force, and the mob on Guadalcanal at the start of Watchtower were some engineers and a security battalion. The Japanese forces were stretched too thin to even hold what they had managed to take against no opposition, they couldn't stretch to take any more.
 
This was no laughing matter in 1942. Had Japan won the Battle of the Coral Sea and taken Port Moresby they would have been in a much better position to try an attack.

An Army that had successfully stormed down the Malaya Peninsular and the Dutch East Indies would have found no insurmountable challenges in Northern Queensland. Equally, landings near Daly River by forces from Timor would have had only a short distance to travel to cut Darwin off from the south.

As to why? Japanese Victory Fever would have provided reason enough.

I'm talking about hind site, I don't think you are.

Think of the insane distances from one part of Australia to the other and the relative lack of infrustructure in the interior at the time.
 
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