Japanese Alliances in Reverse Order

To accomplish this, we would need the Kaiser to be less hung up about Yellow Peril, Germany not joining the Triple Intervention, and Japanese support in establishing German territorial concessions in China. The alliance would be against France and Russia but not against Britain. From what I researched, such an alliance wouldn't affect Anglo-Japanese relations much because the alliance and Britain's common foe is Russia; though, Anglo-Japanese naval cooperation wouldn't be as strong as OTL because of Germany. The IJN wouldn't be as great ITTL but the IJA would be better. With that in mind, things would probably go better for the IJA during the Russo-Japanese War because Germany was able to train them more, but not for the IJN, which probably loses. To establish the Anglo-Japanese Alliance afterwards, Japan would either have to dump Germany for Britain after the Russo-Japanese War or suffer a crushing defeat in World War I. The former would be most plausible because with Japanese land victories, Britain and Japan would fear Russian domination of Asia. As for World War I, that's tough. The Zimmerman Telegram proposed to Mexico that they mediate between Germany and Japan and that all three nations form an anti-American alliance (but they mentioned nothing about the UK). With the IJN sympathetic to the UK, Japan would avoid fighting the British but would gladly fight the French and the Americans. German-Japanese expeditions to French Indochina and the Philippines? Japan would only have to fight the UK if they needed to bail the Germans out in in Tsingtao. I don't see the Anglo-Japanese Alliance coming about after that unless the Entente wants to keep Japan as a check on the Soviet Union.
 
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So you mean Japan joining the Central Alliance? Or it's something else?
Japanese participation in the Central Powers would be likely. What I'm proposing is that Japan's alliances with Britain and Germany switch places. Japan is allied to Germany first, then the UK.
 
Also, the Kaiser overplayed on the idea of Yellow Peril(and seems really the first head of state to reflect racism in foreign policy) as justification - note the naval arms race and triple intervention were all "explained" by such an idea.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
IJN will be organized and equipped differently

To accomplish this, we would need the Kaiser to be less hung up about Yellow Peril, Germany not joining the Triple Intervention, and Japanese support in establishing German territorial concessions in China. The alliance would be against France and Russia but not against Britain. From what I researched, such an alliance wouldn't affect Anglo-Japanese relations much because the alliance and Britain's common foe is Russia; though, Anglo-Japanese naval cooperation wouldn't be as strong as OTL because of Germany. The IJN wouldn't be as great ITTL but the IJA would be better. With that in mind, things would probably go better for the IJA during the Russo-Japanese War because Germany was able to train them more, but not for the IJN, which probably loses. To establish the Anglo-Japanese Alliance afterwards, Japan would either have to dump Germany for Britain after the Russo-Japanese War or suffer a crushing defeat in World War I. The former would be most plausible because with Japanese land victories, Britain and Japan would fear Russian domination of Asia. As for World War I, that's tough. The Zimmerman Telegram proposed to Mexico that they mediate between Germany and Japan and that all three nations form an anti-American alliance but mentioned nothing about the UK. With the IJN sympathetic to the UK, Japan would avoid fighting the British but would fight the French and the Americans. German-Japanese expeditions to French Indochina and the Philippines? I don't see the Anglo-Japanese Alliance coming about after that unless the Entente wants to keep Japan as a check on the Soviet Union.

The IJN will be organized and equipped differently; their first model was the French jeune ecole and so they fought the Sino-Japanese war with what was (largely) a cruiser force; that was followed by a British-influenced balanced fleet, centered on battleships, which is what they fought the RJW with, and which led to the IJN of the world wars...

A German-influenced fleet, if that is what you are suggesting, is probably going to be more of a coast defense type force, at least early on, and even later is still likely to be focused less on long range, habitability, and sea-keeping...

In some ways, at least the early incarnation would look like the Chinese forces the Japanese defeated in 1897.

Best,
 
The IJN will be organized and equipped differently; their first model was the French jeune ecole and so they fought the Sino-Japanese war with what was (largely) a cruiser force; that was followed by a British-influenced balanced fleet, centered on battleships, which is what they fought the RJW with, and which led to the IJN of the world wars...

A German-influenced fleet, if that is what you are suggesting, is probably going to be more of a coast defense type force, at least early on, and even later is still likely to be focused less on long range, habitability, and sea-keeping...

In some ways, at least the early incarnation would look like the Chinese forces the Japanese defeated in 1897.

Best,
Oh no, sorry, I meant that Japan chooses a different anti-Russian ally 1903 or before given the changes described in the description. The Imperial Japanese Navy is still modeled after the Royal Navy but when World War I comes around and Japan sides with Germany, all Japanese military contracts in Britain are terminated and British expertise is pulled from Japan.
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
so if the Japanese lose the sea war in 1904-05, how


Oh no, I meant that Germany chooses a different anti-Russian ally in the early 1900s. The Imperial Japanese Navy is still modeled after the Royal Navy but when World War I comes around British expertise would be pulled from Japan.


So if the Japanese lose the sea war in 1904-05, how do they win the land war?

Best,
 
So if the Japanese lose the sea war in 1904-05, how do they win the land war?

Best,
The IJN became as great as it did from being able to spend more time training with the navy it was modeled after and Britain supplying them with weaponry. I'm applying that same principle to the IJA with Germany. Britain would be sympathetic towards Japan in the Russo-Japanese War and support them though, not as much as OTL when they were allies. The German-Japanese Alliance would specifically target France and Russia, not alienating Britain. I'm actually unsure of if Japan would have lost the Russo-Japanese War. In previous threads I visited with a similar subject, some users say Japan would have lost without the alliance with Britain, others say the German-Japanese Alliance would avert the Russo-Japanese War until World War I, and the rest say that even if Britain supported in a more limited manner Japan could still win because Russia's navy was antiquated, it would just be harder for Japan. I only mentioned a loss at sea and victory on land in the description because, that would make it easier for Japan to dump Germany for Britain afterwards; as the land victories would allow Britain to still see Japan as a credible check on Russia but just needing a more sophisticated navy. A Russian victory would draw the two closer out of fear for Russian domination of East Asia and Japan would no longer see Germany as a reliable ally against Russia. Thoughts?
 
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LordKalvert

Banned
A German-Japanese alliance before the Russo-Japanese War could easily lead to the Russians ignoring Japan all together and going for Germany instead. This would make your idea of Japan surviving and being able to form an alliance with Britain rather easy

The Russians mobilize against Germany and Austria, France mobilizes to defend itself and the Germans mobilize to attack France. The French don't pursue the idiotic strategy of Joffre but fall into defensive action taking advantage of their superior artillery (the French 75's are going to decimate the German 96s and the Germans are lacking in heavy artillery), The Russians beat the Austrians like they do OTL while avoiding the defeat of East Prussia. With the Carpathian passes secured, the Austrians beaten and the French checking the German advance- the Germans are now forced to seperate their armies to defend the East. The Russians and the French launch massive counterattacks that break the Germans

With Germany beaten, France is in the market for new allies as she now fears her Russian ally. The British are terrified at this point and are trying to form a Anglo-French-Italian-Japanese Alliance but this changes WWII a bit
 
With Germany beaten, France is in the market for new allies as she now fears her Russian ally. The British are terrified at this point and are trying to form a Anglo-French-Italian-Japanese Alliance but this changes WWII a bit
Italy has traditionally always maintained good relations with Russia, making me believe it will be joining the Russian side for both world wars. World War I against Austria and Germany and World War II against France and the United Kingdom. Can Fascism still erupt in Europe? Mussolini would be more than willing to aid Russia if it's not communist.
 
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The problem I see is with any
German-Japanese Alliance
what ships does the IJN have in 1914 ? (probably not Kongo's and does anybody else have the facilities to build so much for export?)

Even if its not explicitly aimed at GB, the IJN will still be counted as part of the HSF is they are German equipped and in a German-Japanese Alliance....

Japan would avoid fighting the British but would gladly fight the French and the Americans.
I think if you fight any they all will come in against you....
 
Even if its not explicitly aimed at GB, the IJN will still be counted as part of the HSF is they are German equipped and in a German-Japanese Alliance....
But without hostile action from Japan, Japanese military contracts in Britain are not yet terminated and British expertise is not yet pulled from Japan.
I think if you fight any they all will come in against you....
I was expecting the British to stay neutral during a German-Japanese expedition to French Indochina if it was before Germany's invasion of Belgium. But come to think of it, the United Kingdom declared war on all members of the Central Powers eventually and would do so once the French struggle. As for a German-Japanese expedition to the Philippines, I expected the British and French to stay out of it because the United States wasn't originally part of the Entente but, the expedition would leave the Europeans at the edge of their seat and able to express an on-the-fence attitude no longer. *The German-Japanese expedition to French Indochina and the German-Japanese expedition to the Philippines are two different proposals for Japanese entry into World War I.
 
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LordKalvert

Banned

Italy has traditionally always maintained good relations with Russia, making me believe it will be joining the Russian side for both world wars. World War I against Austria and Germany and World War II against France and the United Kingdom. Can Fascism still erupt in Europe? Mussolini would be more than willing to aid Russia if it's not communist.

Not sure where Italy would fall- Russia is a friend against Austria and with Germany beat and France allied to Britain, Italy may think that joining with Russia is good way to get at France. On the other hand, a Russia that has destroyed Austria, Germany and France is the utter hegemon something everyone fears

Italy is also very vulnerable to Anglo-French navies.

On the other hand, Italy may feel that they got screwed as in OTL when the peace came, think that there's nothing to gain fighting the Russians (just what Italian share of any spoils would be is anybody's guess) and not trust the Anglo-French. In such a case, they would be either pro Russian or neutral
 
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