Japan Wins Battle of Midway, Now What?

The Japanese should fall back and form a defensive perimeter of islands outposts. Build additional airfields within and establish a second and third line of defense within. The navy doesn't strike outside of the defensive perimeter and pretty much takes up the position of a 'fleet in being'. Make the Americans bleed for every island they take. Perhaps, just perhaps, one could fight them to a conditional surrender.

This was Japanese doctrine, with the addition that their fleet should strike the American fleet while the American fleet was escorting an invasion fleet somewhere deep in Japanese held territory.
 

CalBear

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This was Japanese doctrine, with the addition that their fleet should strike the American fleet while the American fleet was escorting an invasion fleet somewhere deep in Japanese held territory.


Worked really well didn't it?

That was the Battle of Philippine Sea (aka The Marianas Turkey Shoot) that occurred when the U.S. attacked the Manadates, Saipan to be specific. Cost the U.S. 123 aircraft, most of which ran out of fuel, and 63 aircrews. Japanese lost three decks (Hiyo, Shokaku, Taiho) two of them to U.S. subs, 600 aircraft (400 off the carriers), close to 90% of the pilots that were shot down, and a couple of oilers. The IJN had three other carriers (Chiyoda, Junyo, Zuikaku) damaged and ended the battle with a TOTAL of 45 operational aircraft.

BTW: Semi-interesting tidbit. Saipan was invaded by 71,000 U.S. troops (2 Marine and one Army division) 9 days after the Allies landed in France.
 
In the end, the only warplan the Japanese held was a fight ending in terms, a conditional surrender by the United States. There was no plan beyond waiting for what would never happen. Against overwhelming military and industrial might and the determination to use it, the bushido spirit doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Now, they understand that. I'm getting in my Honda. Got to pick up a new Sony.
 

CalBear

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That's assuming there's much of a defense left, especially as the Marines aren't going to destroy the first wave without heavy losses, given the cruisers supporting the landing.


Three hours of shelling, especially by 8" gun cruisers, would have about the same effect as the pre-invasion bombardment had at Tarawa, none at all. Unlike the USN at Tarawa, the cruisers had no way to communicate with the landing force, and not even exercised with the landing force in advance. To reach their designated bombardment positions the IJN force was going to have to make a sustained 35 knot sprint to cover the distance between the ships they were escorting and Midway. That hardly allows for much in the way of spotting. All fire would have been made in the dark, when the cruiser's float planes would have been of minimal use as spotters (while being perfectly lovely targets for the radar aimed 3" DP of the defenders) since the PLAN called for the invasion to begin at first light.

I wouldn't bet against the Marines collecting one of the cruisers with their 7" naval rifles (these were the 178mm guns that has served as the secondary battery on the Connecticut & Mississippi classes of pre-dred BB). These guns could punch through 5.5 inches of side armor at 6,000 yards, 3.9 at 9,000 yards. The Japanese Mogami class CA (the class that made up CruDiv 7, the ships assigned to complete the bombardment) had an armored belt of 3.9 inches max thickness, with her deck and turret armor being 1-1.5" thick.

Once that was done the Japanese planned to conduct their amphibious landing using motor launches and towed barges (as they used in the DEI and in the Philippines), dropping their troops 200-400 yards away from the Islets themselves due to the reef, requiring the attackers to climb over the reef and wade in chest deep water through the lagoon. Those troops would have had four 7", five 5", and four 3" anti ship guns, 3" DP guns (24 of them), eight 37mm DP, 18 20mm (AAA but the mounts allowed them to be used in the anti barge role), 48 .50 cal & 36 .30 cal machine guns, a platoon (six IIRC) of M-3 light tanks (37mm main gun, FOUR .30 cal hull mounted plus 1 .30 or .50 on a pintel). This is before the 3,500 men of the defense force start to use their personal weapons (including BAR and Tommy Guns) and before the Japanese troops get to the shallows, where the Marines had laid electrically detonated mines, tanglefoot barbed wire, and around 1,500 IDE (idle hands are the devil's workshop).

As a comparison the Japanese had eight 75mm (3") DP guns, six 80mm anti boat guns (two triple batteries), two twin mounted 127mm (5") anti-ship guns, four 140mm (5.5") anti-ship guns, and four 8" naval rifles and 19 light Type 95 tanks as well as some 70 & 75mm howitzers and some 37mm anti-tank guns in addition to machine guns in both 13mm (.50 cal) and 7.7mm (.30 cal).

The Japanese defense force consisted of around 3,000 men plus some Japanese & Korean laborers. The USN shelled Benito for an hour and a half using 12 battleships (all of which were carrying mostly bombardment shells), 12 cruisers, and a couple dozen destroyers while using the airwings from a dozen CV and CVL as well as five CVE for air support prior to and during the assault. The American assault force was 35,000 men, or roughly 10-1 advantage in troops, many of whom made it to the beach in amtracs in the first wave (before the Japanese defenders blew most of the amtracs into junk). The Americans managed to land several tanks on Benito (the Japanese assault force for Midway had NO heavy weapons) which provided considerable cover fire, and the 8th Marines managed to get some 75mm pack howitzers onto the Beach as well, something else the Japanese lacked.

Despite that massive display of firepower leading up to and after the landing, which is WAY beyond Yamamoto's wildest dreams, and facing a 10-1 disadvantage in troop strength (while facing troops that could call for naval gun and/or air support at will) the Japanese still managed to inflict ~1,700 KIA and ~2,300 WIA on the American attackers. These number would have been considerably higher if the Japanese commander had not been killed on the second day of the assault.

In any case, the U.S. suffered roughly 4,000 casualties taking Tarawa, despite all the advantages I have noted. The ENTIRE Japanese assault force for Midway was 2,500 men.

8-5 the Japanese don't get more than 250 living, armed troops to the beach.
 
I wouldn't bet against the Marines collecting one of the cruisers with their 7" naval rifles (these were the 178mm guns that has served as the secondary battery on the Connecticut & Mississippi classes of pre-dred BB). These guns could punch through 5.5 inches of side armor at 6,000 yards, 3.9 at 9,000 yards. The Japanese Mogami class CA (the class that made up CruDiv 7, the ships assigned to complete the bombardment) had an armored belt of 3.9 inches max thickness, with her deck and turret armor being 1-1.5" thick.

The Japanese defense force consisted of around 3,000 men plus some Japanese & Korean laborers. The USN shelled Benito for an hour and a half using 12 battleships (all of which were carrying mostly bombardment shells), 12 cruisers, and a couple dozen destroyers while using the airwings from a dozen CV and CVL as well as five CVE for air support prior to and during the assault. The American assault force was 35,000 men, or roughly 10-1 advantage in troops, many of whom made it to the beach in amtracs in the first wave (before the Japanese defenders blew most of the amtracs into junk). The Americans managed to land several tanks on Benito (the Japanese assault force for Midway had NO heavy weapons) which provided considerable cover fire, and the 8th Marines managed to get some 75mm pack howitzers onto the Beach as well, something else the Japanese lacked.

Despite that massive display of firepower leading up to and after the landing, which is WAY beyond Yamamoto's wildest dreams, and facing a 10-1 disadvantage in troop strength (while facing troops that could call for naval gun and/or air support at will) the Japanese still managed to inflict ~1,700 KIA and ~2,300 WIA on the American attackers. These number would have been considerably higher if the Japanese commander had not been killed on the second day of the assault.

In any case, the U.S. suffered roughly 4,000 casualties taking Tarawa, despite all the advantages I have noted. The ENTIRE Japanese assault force for Midway was 2,500 men.

8-5 the Japanese don't get more than 250 living, armed troops to the beach.

I think the Wiki - is off on the naval OB, BB's look more like 3.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-M-Tarawa/USMC-M-Tarawa-E.html

Same, source as Markus quoted on Midway defenses.

Wondered where the 7" came from seemed like an odd caliber.

Helped in some early playtesting on the Advanced Squad Leader treatment - squad/vehicle/gun level treatment:

Its truly nasty on the Marines - and that's coming in with Amtraks. I came in between the pier and the point mostly, barely got 1 or 2 ashore.

One thing this treatment brings out too, probably relevant to Japanese use of BB's on Midway - at Tarawa, Maryland's shells tended to skip because of flat trajectory fire, no real relief on the island. (Not to mention its radios conk out for a bit on the first shots from concussion).

Sand in that game halves the HE effect as well.

Most Naval fire in game is destroyers.

Other comments:
My understanding it was just Maryland firing on Tarawa - could be wrong - don't remember mention of others in Utmost Savagery.

Actual landing forces, would be less than 35K, but still way better odds than the less than 1:1.

Marine casualties - just over 800 dead, 2200 wounded.

Based on defenses mentioned for Midway, and Tarawa comparison,
I'd tend to agree though that Japanese would be lucky to even get to the beach at Midway, and don't see how any would survive or have any effect once there.

What wins in ASL Tarawa for Marines is Marine firepower once on the beach - flamethrowers, demo, and even just effect of 1-2 Shermans surviving. If they get ashore with them - lots of .50 cals and .30 cals in those weapons companies. For Japanese of course none of that.

Might be useful to realize just what those 3" DP's are - just a smaller version of the '88 - - same kind of mounting, high rate of fire, on flat trajectory, against thin skinned landing craft.
 

CalBear

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Wondered where the 7" came from seemed like an odd caliber.

Yea, I was REALLY puzzled about the 7" guns. Fortunately NavWeps came to the rescue.

The two pre-dred classes were, as near as I can tell, the ONLY U.S. ships ever equipped with the caliber.

Might be useful to realize just what those 3" DP's are - just a smaller version of the '88 - - same kind of mounting, high rate of fire, on flat trajectory, against thin skinned landing craft.

Well, not QUITE as good as the 88, or even the PaK 40 75mm:), but the M1918 was a decent weapon for use as a DP, especially in the application under discussion. It was, of course, the same weapon used in the M-10 Tank Destroyer (and should, unquestionably, have been fitted to the Sherman stating in 1943 once the Pz IV was becoming the primary Reich tank). The only weakness of the M1918 in the DP role is that it had a minimum elevation of 10 degrees while on the 3 inch Auto Trailer Carriage, while the 88mm Flak mount could actually get all the way to -3 degrees of elevation.
 
Yea, I was REALLY puzzled about the 7" guns. Fortunately NavWeps came to the rescue.

The two pre-dred classes were, as near as I can tell, the ONLY U.S. ships ever equipped with the caliber.

It was also fitted to a few Armored Cruisers as well, but I don't think more than 2 or 3 dozen were built.

Another question, given the reefs just how close could any bombardment fleet get to Midway and Sand Island? I don't think I've ever seen any information on this. I have the impression the BB's wouldn't be able to get too close (then again, they wouldn't need to).
 

Markus

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I wouldn't bet against the Marines collecting one of the cruisers with their 7" naval rifles (these were the 178mm guns that has served as the secondary battery on the Connecticut & Mississippi classes of pre-dred BB). These guns could punch through 5.5 inches of side armor at 6,000 yards, 3.9 at 9,000 yards. The Japanese Mogami class CA (the class that made up CruDiv 7, the ships assigned to complete the bombardment) had an armored belt of 3.9 inches max thickness, with her deck and turret armor being 1-1.5" thick.

IMO that depends on how close the CA get to Midway. Pre-Dreadnought guns of all calibers were designed for meduim range fire.
 
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