Japan more belligerent towards China in WWI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-One_Demands

I was trying to come up with a scenario involving a communist Japan and it seems I may have struck it with this one. Is it plausible that Japan not backing down to international pressure to turn China into a suzerain in WWI would have drained the country dry enough and made it enough of an international pariah to face collapse in the 20s/30s? Butterflies would probably be minimal enough in Europe. America may not respond too well though...
 
I think you might be better off with a continued Japanese intervention in Siberia at the end of the Russian Civil War.

This was deeply unpopular and expensive. Assume a refusual to concede any territory in Russia and a spiralling cost of intervention (lives and yen) and an ideologically sympathetic (to communism) opponent and it is possible that a Communist inspired coup may "save" Japan from the madmen in the Army
 
I was thinking that too, but would an expanded Siberian Intervention really be as costly as trying to subjugate China in the 1910s?

I guess the question is not if it costs more but if it costs enough to discredit the military and the government. Riots broke out after the victorious Russo-Japanese war. What would be the impact of say a three year land war in Siberia and Manchuria with >100,000 casualties and the loss of all Japanese influence in North China and East Russia
 

Flubber

Banned
I was thinking that too, but would an expanded Siberian Intervention really be as costly as trying to subjugate China in the 1910s?


It's going to cost more because the immediate payoff is so much more smaller and it's going to cost more because the development costs are so much more higher.

The portions of China Japan was grabbing were already populated, already developed to some extent, and already had economic activity. Apart from a few locations in the Russian Far East, the same cannot be said for Siberia.
 
I was trying to come up with a scenario involving a communist Japan and it seems I may have struck it with this one. Is it plausible that Japan not backing down to international pressure to turn China into a suzerain in WWI would have drained the country dry enough and made it enough of an international pariah to face collapse in the 20s/30s? Butterflies would probably be minimal enough in Europe. America may not respond too well though...

No. This is fairly unlikely.


Imperial Japan in the Great War era arguably didn't have the milliterist faction at the head of government, hence is far less of a warmonger state than it would become.

Secondly even though the 21 Demands were rejected and a debarcle, during the Great War Imperial Japan had been able to gain several new terrirorities for itself even without enforcing a defacto puppet relationship over China. If Japan stood up to the Allies or Americans by 'pressing China' there was a fair chance that the British or American fleets would sail over to the pacific, and the British and Americans 'enforce' both trade sanctions, and/or apply gunboat diplomacy to annex these captured ex-German territories from Japan, in order to bring Japan to an accord.

In which case there is huge loss of face. Thus it was never on the table.


Had the Imperial Japanese Diet gone ahead with full war in China circa 1918, then it is more than likely that Japan would have fully occupied Southern Manchuria, the Shangdong and Shaghai penisulars as well as likely captured Hainan and moved on Beijing and possibly Nanjing.

The Chinese at this time would have been powerless for the most part to do anything about this.

Internationally the move would likely be very much condemed, and would lead to the enevitable breaking of the Anglo-Japanese allience, as well as a freezing of relations between the powers. However Japan having full access to Chinese markets and authority (at least in the coastal regions). Means her stability will get much stronger in the years to come.

Since Japan will have 'gained China' as her 'puppet' the politics of the 1920s for Japan that favoured co-operation rather than belligerentism towards China will bear fruit, and by circa 1930 when America enters the Great Depression Imperial Japan will be far less effected because she has well developed access to the Chinese markets.

Thus a stable Japan is in exsistance, the Japanese milliterists will not have the economic troubles to gain power, and the strong conservative push of the 1920s Japan will continue through the 1930s. It is likely that Imperial Japan would stay out of a second world war, and would later come to be a staunch supporter against the communists during the Cold War.



The 'Communist Japan' angle is best served by having OTL events up until the late in the war and having the Russians invade/bomb/control the Japanese mainland ahead of the Americans. But that has other repercussions too...
 
Japan was not very militarist in this time period and in fact the military was rather despised by the general public. The Siberian expedition was already quite unpopular, and that was a minor affair compared to what a war with China would have entailed.
 
Yeah, you guys are both right. Looking into it, I don't know how much further could you get Japan into the Siberian intervention? The Diet was already hesitant about it. Any ideas?
 
Japan was not very militarist in this time period and in fact the military was rather despised by the general public. The Siberian expedition was already quite unpopular, and that was a minor affair compared to what a war with China would have entailed.

In fairness, as the stated end goal is a collapse of Japan into communism, a civil collapse in Japan would be accomplishing the goals of the OP.
 
In fairness, as the stated end goal is a collapse of Japan into communism, a civil collapse in Japan would be accomplishing the goals of the OP.
Perhaps they don't do as well in the RJ-war, and as a result feel pressured to take a more active role in China proper. This backfires and leads to civil unrest back home. I just don't see it leading the Communism though; you'd have to have other crappiness happening at the same time.
 
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