Japan in the Allies

CalBear

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If China in the late 1800's or early 1900's had agreed to make an alliance with Japan they could have avoided war.
Up until about 1910, Japan repeatedly asked China to join in an alliance to modernize China, and with their combined might dominate Asia. Unfortunately at first Chinese leaders were unwilling to go against tradition, and then they were unwilling to play second fiddle to Japan. So Japan was repeatedly rebuffed.
As you said Japan needed China, so eventually Japan decided if they couldn't get the necessary resources and cooperation by friendship, they'd take them by force.
If China had been more willing to make a deal, the Japanese-Chinese conflicts wouldn't have happened, and the West would be more willing to cut a deal with Japan.

Problem of course, with making that sort of an arrangement with a "partner" like Imperial Japan, is you can't be sure that you aren't actualy a sheep making a partnership with a wolf, especially if you have just lost a war to the supposed ally.

Given the Japanese attitude toward China, and the Chinese people overall, going back to the time of the Shogunate all the way through the 1894 war, it is hard to see how any such partnership would end well for China.
 
What if Japan loses the Russo-Japanese war? Russia would no doubt put Korea under its sphere of influence, and basically there would be somebody threatening both China and Japan, enough to goad them into a grudging alliance. It would be seen as a alliance of equals more so than OTL because after all, Japan has been proved to be not so strong after all, and still behind the Europeans. With Militarism discredited in Japan, this could blossom into a real alliance based on profitable trade for Japan and change prevailing attitudes on both sides. 30 years should be enough... given how attitudes have changed from 1945 to 1985
 
Problem of course, with making that sort of an arrangement with a "partner" like Imperial Japan, is you can't be sure that you aren't actualy a sheep making a partnership with a wolf, especially if you have just lost a war to the supposed ally.

Given the Japanese attitude toward China, and the Chinese people overall, going back to the time of the Shogunate all the way through the 1894 war, it is hard to see how any such partnership would end well for China.
Partly true. But during the Boxer Rebellion, the Japanese soldiers sent in to help put down the rebellion were, along with the Germans, extremely well behaved. It wasn't until the 1910's and 20's that Japan became virulently anti-Chinese. And while the Chinese would have to swallow their pride, a lot of them realized they had fallen from glory. It was simply making the ruling class realize that.
If the Dowager Empress had died soon after and reformist Emperor Guang Xu regained power its possible he could have made terms with Japan. Japan would be dominate, but at the time the Japanese seemed to see China as an asset as it was. Turning it into another colony like Korea while a possiblity, was unlikely at that time.
So while its unlikely it would be a peaceful relationship, as long as the more militant Japanese don't take power, they should be able to become partners. Which would open up China's markets and resources to Japan, and give the reformist elements in China a powerful ally against the more powerful traditionalists.
 
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What if Japan loses the Russo-Japanese war? Russia would no doubt put Korea under its sphere of influence, and basically there would be somebody threatening both China and Japan, enough to goad them into a grudging alliance. It would be seen as a alliance of equals more so than OTL because after all, Japan has been proved to be not so strong after all, and still behind the Europeans. With Militarism discredited in Japan, this could blossom into a real alliance based on profitable trade for Japan and change prevailing attitudes on both sides. 30 years should be enough... given how attitudes have changed from 1945 to 1985
I like this idea. Its realistic and would be seen as beneficial for both.
 
To toss another idea out, how about having Mao do better in the Chinese Civil War? If Japan can believably spin an invasion of China as being needed to stop the Communists from taking over then the West would be a lot more tolerant of it. Perhaps that could be combined with a surviving alliance between the Nationalists and Germany, so that there's a perception that the only way to stop China from going Nazi or Communist is to accept Japanese control.

Japan making some promises about respecting foreign interests in China would also help; they can always plan break the promises later once they've consolidated their position in China.
 
What if Japan loses the Russo-Japanese war? Russia would no doubt put Korea under its sphere of influence, and basically there would be somebody threatening both China and Japan, enough to goad them into a grudging alliance. It would be seen as a alliance of equals more so than OTL because after all, Japan has been proved to be not so strong after all, and still behind the Europeans. With Militarism discredited in Japan, this could blossom into a real alliance based on profitable trade for Japan and change prevailing attitudes on both sides. 30 years should be enough... given how attitudes have changed from 1945 to 1985

Something like what I was aiming for in my Not By a Mine TL, with Japan becoming more liberal and having closer ties to Britain and the US.
Unfortunately I have stopped work on this TL to finish my novel, but will start back up again soon, check it out.
 
To toss another idea out, how about having Mao do better in the Chinese Civil War? If Japan can believably spin an invasion of China as being needed to stop the Communists from taking over then the West would be a lot more tolerant of it. Perhaps that could be combined with a surviving alliance between the Nationalists and Germany, so that there's a perception that the only way to stop China from going Nazi or Communist is to accept Japanese control.

Japan making some promises about respecting foreign interests in China would also help; they can always plan break the promises later once they've consolidated their position in China.

That's an interesting idea.
 

Hendryk

Banned
To toss another idea out, how about having Mao do better in the Chinese Civil War? If Japan can believably spin an invasion of China as being needed to stop the Communists from taking over then the West would be a lot more tolerant of it. Perhaps that could be combined with a surviving alliance between the Nationalists and Germany, so that there's a perception that the only way to stop China from going Nazi or Communist is to accept Japanese control.
Ironically, if he did that Jiang would essentially reenact the fall of the Ming to the Manchus: calling in an expansionist neighbor to restore order at home, and having said neighbor overstay his welcome. It would be doubly ironical since in OTL, Jiang ended up reenacting the Ming when he evacuated to Taiwan and tried to use it as a base to reconquer the mainland.
 
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