Japan falls late 1943 -- effect on ETO

Blah Blah, Singapore holds, Blah Blah the atempt to take the DEI fails, Blah Blah, Burma, Blah Take Philippines early '43, Blah, Okinawa, Blah.
V-J Day. Japan surrenders in late 1943~ very early 1944.

The Pacific war is Over by February 1944. Liberty ships with tons of supplies start arriving in Vladivostok,
Ships, Planes, & Marines, are freed to go to the ETO.

?What effect will all this have on the ETO.? ?How much will this accelerate V-E Day?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Blah Blah, Singapore holds, Blah Blah the atempt to take the DEI fails, Blah Blah, Burma, Blah Take Philippines early '43, Blah, Okinawa, Blah.
V-J Day. Japan surrenders in late 1943~ very early 1944.

The Pacific war is Over by February 1944. Liberty ships with tons of supplies start arriving in Vladivostok,
Ships, Planes, & Marines, are freed to go to the ETO.

?What effect will all this have on the ETO.? ?How much will this accelerate V-E Day?

Less than it initially appears.

The Marine formations are ill suited for the ETO, very little armor, heavy artillery, trucks, etc. (there is even a variance in uniforms since the Corps never got far enough North to need Cold Weather gear). They also have a very short logistical tail, relying almost completely for the Fleet for supplies (which makes sense, since the Corps IS part of the Navy, much as it hates to admit it). This was great in the Pacific since it allowed maximum bang for the buck, but it is a disaster in Europe. You can take the Army units in the Pacific and feed them in as replacement infantry battalions for units that have been chewed up, or even as individual replacements (which is the stupid option the Army would probably use) but if you try that with the Marines you'll have a munity; Marine rank & file believed (make that believe, present tense) to their soul that they are better than their Army counterparts. Intergrating them would be a bitch. Probably better served using the Marine formations somewhere in the Pacific than even trying to fit them into the ETO. By the time you get them requipped and trained for the ETO, it will be 1945, but the time you build up the tail it will be June of '45.

The Marines, with the amphibious experience they had COULD, especially with 3rd/5th/7th Fleets to back them up, been a very good shock unit for cracking beaches or ports, almost a seaborne paratroop unit. Marine close air support experience would have been very handy at Omaha, as long as they didn't have to go for more than a week-ten days before they were relieved by heavy units.

The Army units will be a help, by early '45 the Army was really starting to feel the "100 division" mindset that had been Marshall's guide from Day One. You would be getting a lot of combat vets, unfortunately, they would be vets in a very different kind of war. The Japanese were masters of fieldcraft and brave to the point of crazy, but the Germans, especially by late '44, are hard core professionals who rely on armor, artillery and tactics. It's sort of the difference between boxing in the Olympics and in the Pros. Guys in the Olympics are good, sometimes even great, but they are amateurs, the pros may not have the skills of the Olympic boxer, but they know how to hurt you.

Most of the AAF fighter aircraft in the Pacific were there because the ETO rejected them (P-39, P-38, P-40) as being not up to dealing with Luftwaffe. The Navy fighters were an open question, I'd imagine that the F6F & F4U would be excellent in the ground attack role (they were tough as hell and share engines with the P-47), and I would take a either of them vs. thebF-109 10 time out of 10, but they lack the range to assist in long range escort work being done by the P-51. The bombers would, of course, be very nice to have.

It would have been handy to throw an extra 700-800 fighters and dive bombers with close ground support experience at Normandy & Southern France, not to mention 12-14 more battleships, including the exceptional Iowas, in the ground support role during the invasions.

Problem is, with the massive fleet available, the Allies might try something REALLY stupid, like a Balkan or (God forbid) Baltic invasion.
 
Problem is, with the massive fleet available, the Allies might try something REALLY stupid, like a Balkan or (God forbid) Baltic invasion.
I was kinda thinking taking the Greek/Italian Islands leading to Mainland Greece.
 

Markus

Banned
The Marine formations are ill suited for the ETO, very little armor, heavy artillery, trucks, etc.

Problem is, with the massive fleet available, the Allies might try something REALLY stupid, like a Balkan ...

1. Independent artillery, tank, whatever Battalion. The US Army had lots of them, didn´t it?

2. Invade the Balkans and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria change sides faster than you can say "Italy". Germany looses almost the entire bauxite supply, most of it´s oil and copper, too. All hell breaks loose in the south of the eastern front when the LOCs are cut and the Allies get another 600,000 men minimum.
 
2. Invade the Balkans and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria change sides faster than you can say "Italy". Germany looses almost the entire bauxite supply, most of it´s oil and copper, too. All hell breaks loose in the south of the eastern front when the LOCs are cut and the Allies get another 600,000 men minimum.

Last time I checked, Romania and Hungary put up a decent fight before switching sides when confronted by the Red Army, though I do have to admit that Bulgaria is most likely to cut its losses and run. However, that action was with the Soviets, and because the US and UK had bombed Sofia, I'm thinking Bulgaria might put up a token defense, at least.
 
2. Invade the Balkans and Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria change sides faster than you can say "Italy". Germany looses almost the entire bauxite supply, most of it´s oil and copper, too. All hell breaks loose in the south of the eastern front when the LOCs are cut and the Allies get another 600,000 men minimum.

Invading the Balkans isn't what you can call 'a walk in the park'. Very likely it would've bogged down to another pseudo-Italy.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
The Bomb isn't used upon the Japanese and instead it leads us to doom as we no longer associate the Atomic Bomb with a huge global war (and thus everything from Brushfires to Riots are controlled with A-bombs...) :eek:
 
Calbear, the Marines would be absolutely perfect for the Dragoon landings, which would in turn free up U.S. Army forces for deployment in Northern France or for the second wave of Dragoon. If they're sent to Northern France, that could make the supply situation that much worse.

Or you could deploy the Marines to the Scheldt estuary, which in OTL was effectively an amphibious campaign due to the destruction of several dikes in the region. The Canadians took several months to clear the approaches to Antwerp ... it might go quicker with the USMC assisting. There's also the possibility of feints/actual landings in Denmark, which would stretch the German Army even further than it already was -- though that's starting to get into cold territory.

The worst-case scenarios are an assault on Norway (the 200,000 Germans there surrendered at the end of the war) or an assault on the Balkans or Greek islands. Liberating Greece from the sea would probably avert the Greek Civil War, but at a high cost in Marines. A cross-Adriatic attack would be interesting, but the conflict in Yugoslavia would be nasty.
 

Markus

Banned
Last time I checked, Romania and Hungary put up a decent fight before switching sides when confronted by the Red Army, ...


And Red Army is the keyword. Of course one fights the damn Commies -even if they don´t happen to be your archenemy, like in the case of Romania- but the USA and UK are n´t the Commies, but civiliced democracies.

Invading the Balkans isn't what you can call 'a walk in the park'. Very likely it would've bogged down to another pseudo-Italy.

Problem 1: The Balkans are a bit bigger than Italy, providing room to manouver.

Problem 2: Who´s going to stop you? Certainly not the Germans, they had nothing there and once the Balkans switch sides they can´t get troops there in time.

Problem 3: Where could the Germans get the troops from? France ... that might be quite helpful for the allied casue.


A cross-Adriatic attack would be interesting, but the conflict in Yugoslavia would be nasty.

How? The Germans have a very small number of third rate troops there. If they can´t even defeat Tito -who will support you- how could they make life "interesting" for the USMC?
 

bard32

Banned
Blah Blah, Singapore holds, Blah Blah the atempt to take the DEI fails, Blah Blah, Burma, Blah Take Philippines early '43, Blah, Okinawa, Blah.
V-J Day. Japan surrenders in late 1943~ very early 1944.

The Pacific war is Over by February 1944. Liberty ships with tons of supplies start arriving in Vladivostok,
Ships, Planes, & Marines, are freed to go to the ETO.

?What effect will all this have on the ETO.? ?How much will this accelerate V-E Day?

Have you ever read John Birmingham's Axis of Time trilogy? In the last book,
Final Impact, D-Day was a month earlier. If Japan fell in early 1944, then it would mean everything in the ETO would also be accelerated. D-Day, (Operation Overlord, ) was originally supposed to begin between late May and June 4, 1944. That timetable had been thrown off due to two things. The fall of Rome and the weather. Especially, the weather, which forced the Allied invasion fleet to return to port.
 
How? The Germans have a very small number of third rate troops there. If they can´t even defeat Tito -who will support you- how could they make life "interesting" for the USMC?[/quote]

That's not a really a gimme if the Croatian conspiracy theorist are correct then Tito and his partizans would join forces with the Germans to repel any WA invasion, besides you'd be funneled by the Dinaric Alps that run along the coast giving a defnding army choke points to hold you up especially if you are planning on having naval support untill you get to the "body" of Europe. On a strategic level your hemmed in by Switzerland and the Carpathien Mountains.
 

Markus

Banned
That's not a really a gimme if the Croatian conspiracy theorist are correct then Tito and his partizans would join forces with the Germans to repel any WA invasion, besides you'd be funneled by the Dinaric Alps that run along the coast giving a defnding army choke points to hold you up especially if you are planning on having naval support untill you get to the "body" of Europe. On a strategic level your hemmed in by Switzerland and the Carpathien Mountains.

Conspiracy theorists wrong by default or they would not be conspiracy theorists. And beware of the Croatians, they have some unresolved issues with Tito.

Tito was getting almost all of his supplies from the UK and the USA, plus air support IIRC.

Once you are across the mountains along the coast, the way is no longer obstructed.

Switerzerland? Of course you go around the Alps. First towards Zagreb and Budapest, turn north to Vienna and there you are.
 
Conspiracy theorists wrong by default or they would not be conspiracy theorists. And beware of the Croatians, they have some unresolved issues with Tito.

Tito was getting almost all of his supplies from the UK and the USA, plus air support IIRC.

Once you are across the mountains along the coast, the way is no longer obstructed.

Switerzerland? Of course you go around the Alps. First towards Zagreb and Budapest, turn north to Vienna and there you are.


Can't help but hear about Tito especially when some of my rellies are over.

As for the other part I was thinking of more heading up through Trieste up to Munich as a "alternate" to the Dragoon attack, also shortens your logistal train going that way but then I thought why would you go over the alps that would be a nightmare
 

bard32

Banned
Conspiracy theorists wrong by default or they would not be conspiracy theorists. And beware of the Croatians, they have some unresolved issues with Tito.

Tito was getting almost all of his supplies from the UK and the USA, plus air support IIRC.

Once you are across the mountains along the coast, the way is no longer obstructed.

Switerzerland? Of course you go around the Alps. First towards Zagreb and Budapest, turn north to Vienna and there you are.

Wartime Croatia was German puppet. Not unlike wartime Slovakia.
 
The Bomb isn't used upon the Japanese and instead it leads us to doom as we no longer associate the Atomic Bomb with a huge global war (and thus everything from Brushfires to Riots are controlled with A-bombs...) :eek:

What? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
 

bard32

Banned
And Red Army is the keyword. Of course one fights the damn Commies -even if they don´t happen to be your archenemy, like in the case of Romania- but the USA and UK are n´t the Commies, but civiliced democracies.



Problem 1: The Balkans are a bit bigger than Italy, providing room to manouver.

Problem 2: Who´s going to stop you? Certainly not the Germans, they had nothing there and once the Balkans switch sides they can´t get troops there in time.

Problem 3: Where could the Germans get the troops from? France ... that might be quite helpful for the allied casue.




How? The Germans have a very small number of third rate troops there. If they can´t even defeat Tito -who will support you- how could they make life "interesting" for the USMC?

That's right. Most people think of the Wehrmacht as being one big mechanized force. In truth, it wasn't. Why? Because only the frontline troops had mechanized artillery. The second line troops actually had horse artillery.
 
That's right. Most people think of the Wehrmacht as being one big mechanized force.
Actually, most people on these boards don't.

In truth, it wasn't. Why? Because only the frontline troops had mechanized artillery. The second line troops actually had horse artillery.
What the hell does SP Artillery have to do with being a mechanized force?
 
Just ignore him and maybe he´ll go away.
Although I would love to adhere to your sig, I think we all know that bard won't be going away.

Maybe, by keeping him busy in existing thread, we can prevent him from making any more threads :Dhimself.
 
How? The Germans have a very small number of third rate troops there. If they can´t even defeat Tito -who will support you- how could they make life "interesting" for the USMC?

The same terrain considerations that made it impossible for the Germans to eliminate Tito as a threat will instead be on the German side. It lends itself to defense, and though you're absolutely correct about the quality of troops available on the German side, Germany did have enough Yugoslavian allies to establish the Independent State of Croatia.

Of course, by 1944, resistance to that state and Ante Pavelic had grown to the point that a coup was attempted in August 1944. Any Western invasion is going to bring with it an even nastier civil war, with the sort of partisan and counter-partisan fighting that isn't really helpful to large military operations. Even though more than half of the partisans favored the Allies, it's rougher going than would be the case in southern France, the Netherlands, or Denmark.
 
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