Japan Blitzes USSR First

The Imperial Japanese Army couldn't even blitz and occupy CHINA, and they're going to overrun everything east of the Urals? Seriously?

Their army was essentially an infantry force from World War One. They had NO heavy tanks that could even begin to match the T-26 or KV-1. Their logistics were weak, they lacked the trucks to be mobile enough to actually use blitzkrieg tactics, and did not have enough heavy weapons.

The Soviets will have at least 200,000 soldiers in the Far East without having to send any from the other districts. These forces had plenty of tanks and artillery and having had recent border conflicts with the Japanese would not likely be taken by surprise. The Japanese just don't have the numbers, equipment, or even the doctrine to blitz the Soviets.

The absolute best the Japanese could hope to accomplish is a stalemate that keeps reinforcements from heading west to defend Moscow. It would be much more likely they would be driven out of Manchuria.
 
btw just regarding numbers

the soviets in their western military districts had more than 4 million men, 7500 aircraft 10000 tanks and 10000 artillery pieces and this was force was gutted through and through twice in five months by a forces outnumbered approximately 3 to 1

the japanese would have numerical superiority in their sector for at least the first year

They were beaten by an improved version of an army that had been beating everyone it faced with ease. Just because you can't beat Barcelona FC doesn't mean you can't beat some local club...
 
Just a quick note on natural resources: petroleum exploitation in northern Sakhalin was ongoing from the early 1920s. Japan occupied the upper part of the island from 1920-25 and retained oil drilling concessions up through 1944 IIRC.

Seizing direct control of N. Sakhalin might make a kind of sense -- especially if one provided some political/diplomatic PODs, perhaps, either preventing these concessions from being granted or else from being preserved through the '30s. But, on the other hand, if Japan c. 1937-39 does have access to that oil through its weird relationship with the USSR, why would they go to war with the USSR over it?

I dunno about this. Argumentum ab insanita isn't all that compelling, personally.
 
They were beaten by an improved version of an army that had been beating everyone it faced with ease. Just because you can't beat Barcelona FC doesn't mean you can't beat some local club...

I agree completely.

The German Army at this time was the best in the world. Given their historic performance that would seem pretty indisputable.

There is no way you can compare the Japanese Army to the Germans. The Japanese soldiers had a high morale and were certainly ferocious soldiers individually. But as far as doctrine, numbers, and equipment went they were much more comparable to the Italians than the Germans.

To expect them to perform anywhere near as well as the Germans did is simply ridiculous.
 
Remember in the May actions it was predominantly Manchukuo 'Militia', not the Kwantung Army that was involved in the opening skirmishes, the Kwanttung support was to sent 2 infantry regiments against a cavalry force (because at the time it was only a very small cavalry force before it gained reinforcements). This is telling because it describes how much that terrain and strategic mobility matters in this region of the world at the time.

Completely off the mark. The ukrepraion and the Mongols were the only thing that faced several battallions of regular Kwantug troops for a fairly long period of time, the rest of the division wasn't there not because it was being held back but because it simply didn't arrive in time.

The Japanese Airforce was also ordered at some point not to fly missions from Tokyo after destroying a Russian airbase.

That's great, except the Soviets regained the initiative fairly quickly afterwards and never lost it even after the Japanese started flying in earnest. And that's even not answering the question of "can the Japanese actually put their air superiority to good use in a land war".

In terms of the failings and successes, the critical aspect was in strategic mobility and the ability to concentrate force, seen at both the beginning and end of the engagements, and in the perceptive leadership from Zhukov, and poor leadership from whatever that Japanese commanders name of pushing the attack before logistics.

You don't say!

Except not really. It was a thoroughly systemic failure. The Japanese unit commanders, the NCOs, the men, were all trained with the focus on getting to grips quickly and were repeatedly told about Soviet inferiority (moral, operational, in terms of seizing initiative, and also in close grips). It was pretty much the sum of their training manuals for troops AND officers. Their reports (even as they are getting slaughtered by Soviet artillery) still speak about that once or twice they bayonetted someone in the trenches. At unit level! And they learned nothing at all from it, in terms of documentation except "The Soviets have good tanks, we need MOAR GUTS (and send us some artillery plox)"

Finally, the overall commander of the operation was suppsedly Kwantung Army's expert on the Soviets.

So Halhin Gol's defensive phase is completely expected, it's the counterattack that will not be guaranteed (less tanks, lesser commanders, lower quality of Soviet pilots, etc.)

But even without a counterattack, it's rather evident that the Japanese didn't have the nous to conduct operations in the middle of nowhere when opposed by the Soviet army.

If we had seen a full scale attack on the Soviet Union its is highly likely that the IJN would have staged landings in/around Chumikin(sp?), Okhotsk and Magelan(sp?) being key strategic areas in the Soviet coastal rear, Okhotsk being the head of a connecting railroad to the Trans-siberian line. With that gone, the Soviet airbase/depot at Tyndski(sp?) is crippled and the Japanese have the opportunity (if they capture Russian rolling stock) to use that line to capture and supply an advance in the north.

Okhotsk is nowhere near the Trans-Sib. Magadan is a bit important but not terribly. Finally the Japanese spreading out in the Okhotsk sea seem like the perfect time for Soviet subs to go hunting. It's huge!

Tynda is as far from Harbin as Halkin Gol. It's almost as far from the cost, and very very far from Okhotsk.

No, the key is Vladivostok, and Vladivostok is a naval fortress of such size and good positioning that no nation tried taking anything vaguley similar at all during the entire naval history of WW2.

Without the Japanese land army, Vladivostok will endure.

The Army likely won't get there within any reasonable amount of time.
 
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...If the Japanese could make a qualitative improvement in anti-armour capability, that might help. Faustpatrone/Panzerfaust/Panzerschrecke family come to mind.
 
corditeman said:
...If the Japanese could make a qualitative improvement in anti-armour capability, that might help. Faustpatrone/Panzerfaust/Panzerschrecke family come to mind.
IJA's answer to armor was sharper bayonets.:rolleyes:
 

sharlin

Banned
They would first need to recognise the threat of tanks for what they were rather than doing what they did over the period 1939 - 1945 which was damn near ignore tank development, whilst towards the very end of the war the IJA did start developing some more modern tanks as well as designing a few over a hundred tonnes, the IJA's doctrine and idea when it came to armour was more 1916 than 1942
 

Flubber

Banned
Just a quick note on natural resources: petroleum exploitation in northern Sakhalin was ongoing from the early 1920s. Japan occupied the upper part of the island from 1920-25 and retained oil drilling concessions up through 1944 IIRC.


As pointed out repeatedly here and as illustrated in CombinedFleet's essays on the subject, the amount of oil produced in Sakhalin in one year by both Japan and the USSR is roughly equivalent to amount needed by the wartime IJN for one month.

There is no "Siberian" oil available in the amount Japan needs.
 
Forget Sakhalin...

...Look under the Hwang Ho delta and the Shantung area. I have a feeling that this was already being looked into by Standard Oil.
 
SIDETRACK!
Although saying that I might have to download girls und panzer...it looks oddly entertaining in that quirky 'why did they make this...' kind of way
No need to download it, you can watch it legally and free on Crunchyroll.

By the way, it takes place in a world where despite the changes that
have been made to make it the way it is (tankery as a girls' sport, school
carriers etc.) in the near future it is implied that World War 2 went
exactly as it did in OTL.

As to why? Liking tanks and liking "cute girls doing cute things together cutely" is not mutually exclusive, especially in Japan. So, why not?
 
Lord High Executioner said:
I seem to recall a pointy stick with a bomb attached...
That was a little later, after finding out attacking Britain & the U.S. did not lead to victory in China, & finding out sharper bayonets & better morale didn't really overcome tanks too well.:rolleyes:
 
Damn, this sounds more like the 41st millenium by the post. Bayonet charging tanks in the Emperor's name!

Except that the Imperial Guard has proper anti tank weaponry from grenades to lascannons. Good job IJA.
 
Damn, this sounds more like the 41st millenium by the post. Bayonet charging tanks in the Emperor's name!

Except that the Imperial Guard has proper anti tank weaponry from grenades to lascannons. Good job IJA.

Even so, the Lemann Russ tanks wouldn't stand a chance against properly trained and equipped armored forces. :p
 
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