Japan Better Off as a Mongol Khanate?

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I'm talking long term here - clearly in the short term the answer would be an emphatic no. (massacres and all around destruction)
However, say after a successful 2nd Mongol Invasion of Japan in 1281, Kubla Khan destroys the Shogunate, and subsequently unites all the desperate Japanese clans under a tributary Khanate. Then later, just like the Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol regime collapses.

Would Japan have been better off in this ATL compared to the years of strife and infighting that followed it's victory in OTL?

Some thoughts:
This pretty much butterflies the destruction of the Sengoku period, as well as the isolation of the Edo as both the legitimacy of a Shogunate and the importance placed on Feudal/Clan rivalrys would also certainly disappear post-Mongol regime. Also, as an integrated part of the Pax Mongolica, trade and cultural exchanges would most likely flourish during this period.
 
Why would anyone in Europe want to trade with Japan? What exotic goods do they have that Mongol China doesn't? China and stuff did well because the silk trade was opened up again, not just because their leader was a Mongol for a while. Places like Persia that didn't have much to trade got pretty badly wrecked by the Mongols.

Japan may open up, but they could just as easily close themselves down again - they were 'open' around 1540 to the Portuguese, but then ended up closed for most of the 17th and 18th centuries. The exact specifics of living there will certainly change a bit, but not excessively so if they have a foreign lord for 50-80 years. The "Japanese" culture will still remain.

- BNC
 
Why do you assume that Japan wouldn't have civil strife if it became a tributary of the Yuan? Korea, for example, actually became destabilized by the end of Yuan rule, and it's pretty much inevitable the Japanese will break out from under their influence, probably causing a civil war between loyalists and proto-nationalists. I doubt that the Yuan would be interested in destroying the power of the clans in favor of a more centralized government in the first place, anyway.
 
Alright. Let's say that the Yuan successfully conquer Japan. They cannot claim the Imperial title... okay, I guess they could but few lords would take it seriously. So, we can assume that they set up a system similar to the Shogunate, with Kublai Khan installing one of his relatives in the position. In order to stay in power, clans are played off of each other to distract them from the real threat, which is that of the Mongol Shogunate. For simplicity, let's assume that after Kublai Khan's death in 1294, all 5 of the Mongol states become independent of each other like OTL. Mongol Japan would remain a close ally of the Yuan out of necessity, but if the Yuan dynasty still falls (likely, butterflies probably wouldn't prevent the warming period.) then the days of the Mongolian Shogunate are numbered. Eventually, it would likely lead to a Sengoku like situation until someone finally unites all of Nippon under their banner, expelling the Mongols.
 
Alright. Let's say that the Yuan successfully conquer Japan. They cannot claim the Imperial title... okay, I guess they could but few lords would take it seriously. So, we can assume that they set up a system similar to the Shogunate, with Kublai Khan installing one of his relatives in the position. In order to stay in power, clans are played off of each other to distract them from the real threat, which is that of the Mongol Shogunate. For simplicity, let's assume that after Kublai Khan's death in 1294, all 5 of the Mongol states become independent of each other like OTL. Mongol Japan would remain a close ally of the Yuan out of necessity, but if the Yuan dynasty still falls (likely, butterflies probably wouldn't prevent the warming period.) then the days of the Mongolian Shogunate are numbered. Eventually, it would likely lead to a Sengoku like situation until someone finally unites all of Nippon under their banner, expelling the Mongols.
They already have the imperial title.Do you have any idea how much it annoys the Chinese monarchs whenever the Japanese claim that their ruler is an emperor?In all diplomatic correspondence,the Japanese were forced to refer to their ruler as the King of Japan rather than emperor.During the Ming Dynasty,the emperor of China decided to bypass the Emperor of Japan thing altogether by granting the Shogun the title of King of Japan,which the Shoguns of the Ashikaga Shogunate used externally.They wouldn't have bothered with a shogunate unless it's one similar to the Protector-General in which the office is non-hereditary and is more or less like a viceroyalty which directly reports to Beijing.The House of Yamato most likely would have been purged or deported altogether to Beijing in the event of a successful conquest.
 
They already have the imperial title.Do you have any idea how much it annoys the Chinese monarchs whenever the Japanese claim that their ruler is an emperor? In all diplomatic correspondence, the Japanese were forced to refer to their ruler as the King of Japan rather than emperor. During the Ming Dynasty, the emperor of China decided to bypass the Emperor of Japan thing altogether by granting the Shogun the title of King of Japan, which the Shoguns of the Ashikaga Shogunate used externally. They wouldn't have bothered with a shogunate unless it's one similar to the Protector-General which directly reports to Beijing. The House of Yamato most likely would have been purged or deported altogether to Beijing.
Spaces after your periods please... okay, yeah, I get it. Japanese would be wiped, all hail the Mongol overlords... yet they didn't last for long in any place except the Golden Horde and even then they fell apart pretty quickly once the ball got rolling. So, in all likelihood the Mongols would be expelled eventually and some new order will arise.
 

trurle

Banned
battle_mongol02.jpg


I'm talking long term here - clearly in the short term the answer would be an emphatic no. (massacres and all around destruction)
However, say after a successful 2nd Mongol Invasion of Japan in 1281, Kubla Khan destroys the Shogunate, and subsequently unites all the desperate Japanese clans under a tributary Khanate. Then later, just like the Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol regime collapses.

Would Japan have been better off in this ATL compared to the years of strife and infighting that followed it's victory in OTL?

Some thoughts:
This pretty much butterflies the destruction of the Sengoku period, as well as the isolation of the Edo as both the legitimacy of a Shogunate and the importance placed on Feudal/Clan rivalrys would also certainly disappear post-Mongol regime. Also, as an integrated part of the Pax Mongolica, trade and cultural exchanges would most likely flourish during this period.
I think in this ATL the relative importance of warrior monks and theocratic states like Kaga Ikki will be reduced. Also, ninja tradition is likely do not emerge too. Too centralized government plus too many religions compared to OTL. Also, the likelihood of Japan becoming a closed state is reduced if not eliminated completely. IOTL, one of main justifications for isolation (sakoku) policy was "foreigners bring only evil, but Japan alone can defeat any invasion with help of gods". With successful Mongol invasion and ruling dynasty of Japan being foreigners for some time in historical (as opposed to pre-history) period..such justification sounds a bit silly. Also, open Japan likely mean more extensive Japanese colonise in Philippines in 16th century. IOTL, Philippine colonies gradually dissolved after Japanese government started isolation (sakoku). Succesful Mongol invasion thus may mean very culturally and religiously diverse Japan by 19th century, with large Japanese-derived communities or even independent states across West Pacific.
 
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Spaces after your periods please... okay, yeah, I get it. Japanese would be wiped, all hail the Mongol overlords... yet they didn't last for long in any place except the Golden Horde and even then they fell apart pretty quickly once the ball got rolling. So, in all likelihood the Mongols would be expelled eventually and some new order will arise.
I'm not saying they will be rolled,but IF they get rolled,it is very likely that the country will be virtually recognized after the occupation,just as Ming China was a very different place to Song China.
 
They already have the imperial title.Do you have any idea how much it annoys the Chinese monarchs whenever the Japanese claim that their ruler is an emperor?In all diplomatic correspondence,the Japanese were forced to refer to their ruler as the King of Japan rather than emperor.During the Ming Dynasty,the emperor of China decided to bypass the Emperor of Japan thing altogether by granting the Shogun the title of King of Japan,which the Shoguns of the Ashikaga Shogunate used externally.They wouldn't have bothered with a shogunate unless it's one similar to the Protector-General in which the office is non-hereditary and is more or less like a viceroyalty which directly reports to Beijing.The House of Yamato most likely would have been purged or deported altogether to Beijing in the event of a successful conquest.
The Chinese never did anything of sorts when they put the Vietnamese Emperors in their place, why would the House of Yamato get the special treatment?
 
The Chinese never did anything of sorts when they put the Vietnamese Emperors in their place, why would the House of Yamato get the special treatment?
Because they are an island nation. An island nation that the way to by boat is stormy during campaign season, and thus hard to conquer.

With Vietnam on the other hand, you just march an army to the south by land and make them obey. No ocean to cross.
 
The Chinese never did anything of sorts when they put the Vietnamese Emperors in their place, why would the House of Yamato get the special treatment?
Which Vietnamese emperor?You mean the puppet ones during the Ming Dynasty?I'm pretty sure those ones were officially styled as Kings of Annam rather than as emperor.They were also deported to China was their use was complete and Vietnam gets provincialized.

As for the House of Yamato,they have been ruling Japan in some capacity for many centuries and claimed to be literal gods.
 
The Chinese never did anything of sorts when they put the Vietnamese Emperors in their place, why would the House of Yamato get the special treatment?
Goryeo did not become an administrative unit of China, so I doubt Japan would have been. The worst that could happen is for the Imperial family to be forced to take Mongol brides, though I think it'd be more likely they'd empower one of the weaker Daimyo instead.
 
I think in this ATL the relative importance of warrior monks and theocratic states like Kaga Ikki will be reduced. Also, ninja tradition is likely do not emerge too. Too centralized government plus too many religions compared to OTL. Also, the likelihood of Japan becoming a closed state is reduced if not eliminated completely. IOTL, one of main justifications for isolation (sakoku) policy was "foreigners bring only evil, but Japan alone can defeat any invasion with help of gods". With successful Mongol invasion and ruling dynasty of Japan being foreigners for some time in historical (as opposed to pre-history) period..such justification sounds a bit silly. Also, open Japan likely mean more extensive Japanese colonise in Philippines in 16th century. IOTL, Philippine colonies gradually dissolved after Japanese government started isolation (sakoku). Succesful Mongol invasion thus may mean very culturally and religiously diverse Japan by 19th century, with large Japanese-derived communities or even independent states across West Pacific.
But let us remember that Korea, after it ended Mongol rule, heavily suppressed local religion and eventually became isolated. The end of the Yuan and beginning of sakoku entails a period of almost three hundred years, during which any number of things might happen. But you cannot say that Mongol rule will necessarily bring about a more pluralistic society (especially when it ends) nor guarantee a future policy of isolationism (arguably Joseon became even more isolationist than Japan after the Ming fell).
 

trurle

Banned
But let us remember that Korea, after it ended Mongol rule, heavily suppressed local religion and eventually became isolated. The end of the Yuan and beginning of sakoku entails a period of almost three hundred years, during which any number of things might happen. But you cannot say that Mongol rule will necessarily bring about a more pluralistic society (especially when it ends) nor guarantee a future policy of isolationism (arguably Joseon became even more isolationist than Japan after the Ming fell).
May be. Unfortunately, i do not think the Japan will regain its royal (or shogunate) family and any semblance of self-rule like Korea IF 2nd mongol invasion of 1281 would be successful. Mongol political positions at 1281 was much more firm compared to 1271, and they would not need any puppet regimes. Therefore, the impact on life in Japan would be much more severe compared to Goreyo (Korea), and Japanese counter-reaction during failure of Yuan dynasty would have very small chances for complete reversal of introduced changes.
 
Goryeo did not become an administrative unit of China, so I doubt Japan would have been. The worst that could happen is for the Imperial family to be forced to take Mongol brides, though I think it'd be more likely they'd empower one of the weaker Daimyo instead.
If it's a vassal relationship,I think they'd just empower one of the Hojos and just remove the imperial family.I'm not sure why they would bother with the puppet master of the puppet master of the puppet master of the puppet master thing--the whole Hojos are the regents of the Minamoto and the Minamotos are technically ruling on behalf of the emperor thing is already highly unusual.
 
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