The Chinese themselves were known to bow to barbarian peoples when they were too hurt or defeated, and they themselves regularly sent envoys to powerful barbarians in order to influence and play politics with them. The Ming actually propped up the Manchus to be their guards and stewards, a situation that has a number of analogs in their own past such as with the southern Xiongnu. These were to ward off immediate military threats and to secure their borders.
Such would not be the case with distant barbarian islands, because such was not the case throughout their entire history. You need to significantly change things for that to happen.
Yes, and I agreed that it would be difficult for either Korea or China to set their sights further south unless there was a major impetus for doing so. In this case, Japan's gradual explorations and access to a significantly increased amount of resources over time would potentially perk it's neighbors' interest and possibly reform their military after Japan begins to invest more resources into its armed forces. However, the exact details would depend on the specific chain of events, and would be largely uncertain.
Fair enough, however I would suggest that the Imjin War doesn't have to necessarily be butterflied away, merely its execution or perhaps the internal power structure of the Toyotomi.
That's fine, although significant changes still need to be made.
Questin: why?
Both of us have, over the topics, commented on various ways for China and Korea to look outward and compete with Europe. All of these revolved around internal changes: be it cultural, economical, or even political. None of them had it occur as a natural product of a change occurring in Japan. While both Korea and China recognized Japan as above most other states, it was still a lesser entity to them.
Again: its possible, but I'm not sure I see this occurring without something making this happen. How lesser entities dealt with barbarians was of no concern to China unless other factors already made them their concern. That would suggest that Japan would have free reign until it does something very stupid, by then the gap may be large enough for Japan to win.
Again, there are multiple possibilities and outcomes to consider, but Japan's potential explorations and incursions into areas much further south over decades, if not centuries, along with the resulting butterflies, theoretically could be significant enough to shift Chinese and Korean mindsets over time.
While I do not deny that those problems would be difficult when faced, any issues Japan would have are magnified many times greater for the Europeans given the vast difference in strain when it comes to logistics.
True, but Japan would be limited in many aspects as well, so the actual outcome would probably be unknown.
Actually he is full of Korean Patriotism, and always overrate Koreans while underrate others. It is what he is doing. So no need to convince him. He won't listen what you say. in order to make him agree with you is to do Koreans Superpower...
There were a handful of members interested in Korea on this forum who joined before me, and some were banned for espousing radical views. In most cases, I actually try to argue that Korea's situation should not be drastically different from IOTL after 668 or so, and I've actually argued multiple times that it would have been extremely difficult for Korea to industrialize after Westerners began to visit, as the political structure after 1650 was more concerned about isolation than learning more about the outside world. You're actually confusing my viewpoints concerning the situation before 1392, when Korea had the potential to expand further into Manchuria given very specific circumstances, and after, when its borders were mostly stabilized, except for a small possibility during Gwanghaegun's reign, but that would also require PoD's beforehand.
He's actually not that bad. He has a bias towards Korea, but everyone has some bias to one state or another and has on more than few occasions provided an excellent debate that educated me in some way.
If you want real bias find a Korean revisionist. At that point if you don't admit that Korean civilization spawned East Asian civilization, if not the world, then you obviously don't know what you are talking about. That, amongst other things, that Confucius was a Korean, China never made any significant inroads into Korea, that most of coastal China was at certain points a colony of Korea, that all of west Japan was a Korean colony during the time of Silla and Baekje, Korea was never part of the tributary system or was merely lying the entire time they were in it, and the East emulated Korea instead of China. The worst part of this is that most of the time its a South Korean, not a North Korean, stating this. Thankfully I've only had the distinct pleasure of discussing this with a small number (around 5) over the years.
Well, for one, I don't think any of us, have had significant contacts, if any, with North Koreans, and I've personally never talked to any. Anyway, people who espouse these viewpoints tend to be a very small minority, and are generally rejected by mainstream historians, so they aren't believed for the most part.
It was certainly a strong regional power, but being a great power implies a certain amount of reach it just didn't have.
Japan was most heavily influenced by the Chinese at this time more so than the Koreans, copying Chinese characters and modelling their cities after them. In addition Confucianism, Chinese cultural perceptions, and dress drastically altered the country. Korea certainly had a strong influence, but it wasn't the strongest.
A partial Korean Manchuria is more than possible, but there's a bit of a logistics problem for Manchuria to be totally dominated by Korean. Even when Korean influence was at its height it operated its own tributary system and exerted very little direct control in the center and north.
Its fine to be pro-something. I have a bit of bias in me myself.
There's a large difference between Korea before and after 668. Goguryeo maintained a tributary system for centuries before eventually absorbing many of its neighbors around 350-450 in order to facilitate the assimilation process, and retaining them until 668. This overarching influence manifested itself when Balhae was reestablished in 698 among people of varying ethnicities and regions, although the original aristocracy had ceased to exist. However, any attempts to expand influence after Balhae's fall in 926 would be extremely limited. In addition, Chinese culture began to filter in after the Han initially established the four commanderies in 108 BC, but the underlying culture generally remained intact, and it was not until after 668 that Chinese influences began to be adopted on a widespread basis, although it was initially tilted toward Buddhism.
After Joseon had been established, though, the state widely adopted Confucianism in order to counter Buddhism's influence, and began to actively participate in the tributary system, giving outsiders the perception that Korea was always loyal to China, although this was not necessarily true beforehand.
