Japan 1941 attacks Australia instead of PH

[lionhead]

What i want is the Japanese fleet in 1941 not sneaking its way too Hawaii but sneaking over too Australia. I did measure that Australia is much further away from Tokyo then Hawaii is(like 2000 KM more), but imagine then that they launch from Truk.

Could they make it too Sydney without detection, going around the Solomons and in through the Coral Sea? Or how about straight through the Bismarck Sea?

Imagine after the attack every other attack goes as OTL, except on US targets. Instead they attack the Solomons and Timur.

What then? If they load enough planes with heavy bombs they could wreck havoc in Sydney itself and its harbor. Of course they won't load any torpedo's, just regular bombs to destroy ground targets as they are more important, industry and administrational buildings. MAybe a few Ships. Could they put enough fear in the Australians that they might considder retreating from the war?

What could the small RAAF do, are there Airfields close that could threathen the Japanese fleet or attacking CAG's?

Would the US stay neutral?

Is this ASB?

Do I love asking questions?

 

[Devolved]

What i want is the Japanese fleet in 1941 not sneaking its way too Hawaii but sneaking over too Australia. I did measure that Australia is much further away from Tokyo then Hawaii is(like 2000 KM more), but imagine then that they launch from Truk.

Could they make it too Sydney without detection, going around the Solomons and in through the Coral Sea? Or how about straight through the Bismarck Sea?

Imagine after the attack every other attack goes as OTL, except on US targets. Instead they attack the Solomons and Timur.

What then? If they load enough planes with heavy bombs they could wreck havoc in Sydney itself and its harbor. Of course they won't load any torpedo's, just regular bombs to destroy ground targets as they are more important, industry and administrational buildings. MAybe a few Ships. Could they put enough fear in the Australians that they might considder retreating from the war?

What could the small RAAF do, are there Airfields close that could threathen the Japanese fleet or attacking CAG's?

Would the US stay neutral?

Is this ASB?

Do I love asking questions?

Why would they waste their time, bombs, fuel and one second of planning time AND risk a war with an untouched US Navy just to bomb Sydney Harbour Bridge?

 

[Riain]

Why would they waste their time, bombs, fuel and one second of planning time AND risk a war with an untouched US Navy just to bomb Sydney Harbour Bridge?

The same reason fuckwits kick or key a nice car; jealousy!

 

[Devolved]

The same reason fuckwits kick or key a nice car; jealousy!

That sounds like the bitter voice of experience talking.

 

[Pangur]

The Japanese would be more than capable of making this happen.They would however get smashed. The action would start a war between the UK and Japan. The not so clever Japanese in this scenario have left the UK in full control of HK and Singapore and they have no chance of now taking any nation by surprise. The US most likely would not get directly involved however they would speed up rearming

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The Japanese would be more than capable of making this happen.They would however get smashed. The action would start a war between the UK and Japan. The not so clever Japanese in this scenario have left the UK in full control of HK and Singapore and they have no chance of now taking any nation by surprise. The US most likely would not get directly involved however they would speed up rearming

I think HK and Singapore go in like OTL

He mentions all non US targets go in like OTL

 

[Pangur]

I think HK and Singapore go in like OTL

He mentions all non US targets go in like OTL

Yep, your correct. That would still leave Wake and the Philippines left alone. I will still stick with an speeder US rearmament. I would not expect the US to declare war however there would be no way that at a later stage that the Japanese could pull of a surprise attack on the US at a later date

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Yep, your correct. That would still leave Wake and the Philippines left alone. I will still stick with an speeder US rearmament. I would not expect the US to declare war however there would be no way that at a later stage that the Japanese could pull of a surprise attack on the US at a later date

Oh completely agreed

They are going to rush the fortifying of the pacific possessions and building the Philippine military

Naval construction is going to go three shifts and aircraft development will be moved up, fun

 

[HMS Warspite]

Australia was not a target at all in Japanese strategical thinking, more an irritating blob of mostly empty landmass in the South, rather than anything else. The prime target was the Dutch East Indies and the riches in resources of that region, nothing else. Only tactically important bases, such as Singapore and Hong Kong were to be attacked logically, perhaps with the avoiding of getting the USA involved directly a more wise option, than in the OTL.

 

[lionhead]

Australia was not a target at all in Japanese strategical thinking, more an irritating blob of mostly empty landmass in the South, rather than anything else. The prime target was the Dutch East Indies and the riches in resources of that region, nothing else. Only tactically important bases, such as Singapore and Hong Kong were to be attacked logically, perhaps with the avoiding of getting the USA involved directly a more wise option, than in the OTL.

I don't expect them to invade Australia, thats nuts.

I was more aiming for a psychological kick in the nuts for the Australians having Sydney in ruins and the Japanese able to attack Australia's mainland so heavily. Darwin will be attacked too, maybe Brisbane as well(on the way back by the Kido Butai).

Would that scare the Australians off? At least long enough for Port Moresby and such to be lost? and what then, if the Japanese have all the islands north of Australia in hands, the Australians and New Zealanders will be cut off. No shipping would get through, all RAN ships would be lost. Would they surrender before the USA gets involved?

 

[GarethC]

Force Z sails not to intercept the Malayan landings, but instead has a night action with Kido Butai, which is nearly out of fuel, avgas, and aircraft ordnance. Over 100 torpedoes are fired, but in the confusion there are more red-on-red hits than there are on British ships.

In the morning, Phillips radios Singapore. "We have met the enemy, and they are sunk. God save the King."

While PoW limps back to the island, and Repulse and five destroyers are lost with few survivors, the loss of Hiei, Kirishima, Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Tone, a light cruiser, four destroyers, admirals Nagumo and Abe, and commanders Genda and Fuchida is a crippling blow to the Japanese warmaking capability.

 

[Devolved]

I don't expect them to invade Australia, thats nuts.

I was more aiming for a psychological kick in the nuts for the Australians having Sydney in ruins and the Japanese able to attack Australia's mainland so heavily. Darwin will be attacked too, maybe Brisbane as well(on the way back by the Kido Butai).

Would that scare the Australians off? At least long enough for Port Moresby and such to be lost? and what then, if the Japanese have all the islands north of Australia in hands, the Australians and New Zealanders will be cut off. No shipping would get through, all RAN ships would be lost. Would they surrender before the USA gets involved?

You are still pushing the Japanese attacking Australia ASB fantasy?

Why would they do that when Australia poses no threat to them and cannot stop them achieving any of their objectives. Their goal was to seize the resources of South East Asia. Australia can DO NOTHING about it.

The only people who could stop them were the Americans and guess who they bombed?

Also why would Australia surrender just because a few planes bombed Sydney? I also doubt carrier borne planes with limited bomb loads would leave a whole city like Sydney 'in ruins'.

Britain had been bombed hundreds of times by the Germans by the end of 1941 from far more planes than the Japanese ever used and they didn't surrender.

Why not have the Americans surrender after Pearl Harbor? It would make just as much sense.

 

[lionhead]

Okay, okay. it was a silly thought. But interesting.

and i don't mean that they would totally ruin Sydney. But a lot will be destroyed, which is bad enough for such a 'remote' city.

 

[Devolved]

Okay, okay. it was a silly thought. But interesting.

and i don't mean that they would totally ruin Sydney. But a lot will be destroyed, which is bad enough for such a 'remote' city.

They've got Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Newcastle, Perth and they even had electricity and cars.

Australia is not the Falkland Islands.

They had more food than anyone else, clothing, heavy industry and were even making planes and warships. Being bombed would make them angry not scared and they would be looking for revenge and not a white flag.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

You are still pushing the Japanese attacking Australia ASB fantasy?

Why would they do that when Australia poses no threat to them and cannot stop them achieving any of their objectives. Their goal was to seize the resources of South East Asia. Australia can DO NOTHING about it.

The only people who could stop them were the Americans and guess who they bombed?

Also why would Australia surrender just because a few planes bombed Sydney? I also doubt carrier borne planes with limited bomb loads would leave a whole city like Sydney 'in ruins'.

Britain had been bombed hundreds of times by the Germans by the end of 1941 from far more planes than the Japanese ever used and they didn't surrender.

Why not have the Americans surrender after Pearl Harbor? It would make just as much sense.

Okay, man, let's not go too far now. While Australia being attacked is quite a bit less likely than Pearl Harbor, that much is true....I don't think it's ASB.

 

[Atomicwalrus]

They've got Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Newcastle, Perth and they even had electricity and cars.

Australia is not the Falkland Islands.

They had more food than anyone else, clothing, heavy industry and were even making planes and warships. Being bombed would make them angry not scared and they would be looking for revenge and not a white flag.

This basically, Australia can't do an awful lot by itself to beat Japan but you can bet they are going to put up a fight.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Again, Australia was not that important to waist military resources for by Japan, as these already were on short supply and the naval units needed to attack Australia were also much more needed in more strategical parts of the Pacific War, at least if Japan wanted to get at least a major advantage from the start. Australia was at best a diversion, not worth too much attention, but possibly forcing the Allies to use some of their military resources in a part of the Pacific, which was not that important for the war to come.

If any attack on purpose on any Australian target (most likle a naval target) was to be done, it was most likely by submarine, as in the OTL, while the historical raid on the North of Australia actually was a minor part of the Dutch East Indies Campaign.

So sadly for the Australians, they were not going to become considered important enough by the Japanese, worth some serious attention. More powerfull contenders were also in the Pacific to beconcerned about first.

 

[Blackfox5]

I don't expect them to invade Australia, thats nuts.

I was more aiming for a psychological kick in the nuts for the Australians having Sydney in ruins and the Japanese able to attack Australia's mainland so heavily. Darwin will be attacked too, maybe Brisbane as well(on the way back by the Kido Butai).

Would that scare the Australians off? At least long enough for Port Moresby and such to be lost? and what then, if the Japanese have all the islands north of Australia in hands, the Australians and New Zealanders will be cut off. No shipping would get through, all RAN ships would be lost. Would they surrender before the USA gets involved?

A carrier strike would not leave Sydney in ruins. Several squadrons of dive bombers are not going to destroy Sydney, although they'll certainly create a lot of rubble and kill thousands (most likely civilians).

What military targets are in Sydney anyway? Nothing that would justify the risk and lose the strategic advantage of surprise which could have been used much better against Singapore or another important military target.

While there'd certainly be fear, I don't see it impacting Australia's will to fight. The unprovoked attack on civilian Sydney would only enrage Australians and the rest of the British Empire. It would also infuriate Americans. The USA may not declare war, but it'll end any chance Japan has of negotiating with them. Lend Lease to Australia would zoom. And the USA might even start escorting convoys directly to Australia, defying the Japanese to attack them and bring the US into the war.

It's just a monumentally bad idea for the Japanese to do this.

 

[Alien and Sedition Bat]

The only way I can see this happening is by a POD that give the Japanese an ideology that embraces lebensraum, the idea that the Japanese would expand into Australia and make it part of a greater Japan with a majority Japanese population. But such an ideology would be sufficiently ruthless to justify lebensraum into the Philippines or the Dutch East Indies as well--a plan of ethnic cleansing and/or genocidal extermination in those islands to make way for Japanese colonization. These areas are a lot closer to Japan, and are not composed largely of desert. Plus semi-industrialized Australia would have been much harder to conquer; among other reasons, because it had a defense industry of sorts and because it would be impossible for the Japanese to prevent supplies from being sent to Australian forces from parts of the country not under Japanese control and from overseas. The country could not be isolated from help to the extent the PI and DEA were.

 

[NeoDesperado]

A carrier strike would not leave Sydney in ruins. Several squadrons of dive bombers are not going to destroy Sydney, although they'll certainly create a lot of rubble and kill thousands (most likely civilians).

What military targets are in Sydney anyway? Nothing that would justify the risk and lose the strategic advantage of surprise which could have been used much better against Singapore or another important military target.

What about a strike on Melbourne and their naval facilities? I know reaching Sydney was stretching their logistics as it is, would going the extra distance be an option in the face of the added incentives? Too risky for being spotted/intercepted?