Erik XIV of Sweden or Frederick II of Denmark would both work as grooms for Katherine, if her Pembroke match doesn't go ahead.
Jane Grey born male
- Thread starter Zygmunt Stary
- Start date
Mary being the most popular with the people still applies no matter what gender of her rival
No, it doesn't. Or rather, I'm not sure Mary WOULD be the most popular with the people ITTL. She's 37 when Edward dies, unmarried and childless. Any match she might make risks subsuming England into a foreign country. And the chances of her having a child to secure the succession are vanishingly small in the thinking of the time.
John and Elizabeth, meanwhile, are 16 and 20 respectively, with every reason to believe they'll fill the nursery before too much longer, and their marriage/succession keeps England independent of either France or the Hapsburgs. I think you'll find they'd probably be more popular than the aging Mary, religious doubts or not.
Not true and pretty unlikely when her rival is a) male and b) married to her half-sister (in OTL Elizabeth supported Mary, but here she will be her enemy) while she is an old maid with little chances to have heirs.
Is also possible who John and Elizabeth had already a child at Edward’s death as I think they would marry as soon is possible
I doubt who Katherine Grey here will be engaged to a Seymour/Herbert/Dudley boy as is likely who the plan would be to use her as proxy for a foreign match since the beginning and I agree on her marrying either Erik or Frederick.
I'd say Erik is most probable option as he was solidly Protestant and interested in getting English match
If there'd be a male cousin around, Mary wouldn't have even been able to fart without it being reported to the new King. And, as to be expected, I think heads would roll. Namely Mary's. Right into a basket.
Do you think Habsburgs wouldn't object to execution of their relative?
They would not. She was English born and a subject of the Kings of England
Ok, so I think after Mary's elimination John's rule is quite secure, especially if he'd have a son with Elizabeth.
English-born...so? If they need to fight England, her death is a perfect excuse. See OTL Mary, Queen of Scots who wasn't even related to the Habsburgs
And she was a (former) monarch (of another country) executed for treason by a fellow monarch (who is a big no) while being herself a foreign royal in that country. Totally different situation (Mary was Scottish born, not English meaning who she was NOT Elizabeth’s subject). If the Habsburg start to interfere with how fellow monarchs deal with their subjects (children and relatives included) they would open themselves to same treatment (and nobody want that. In OTL Charles V protested the treatment of his aunt, who was Spanish born, but dropped any support to his cousin Mary as soon Catherine died)
...why? What is the use of executing Mary? Potential cause for discontent and a falling out with Spain that nobody needs. Just marry her off to some lower-ranking Protestant prince or nobleman.
She will need to stay unmarried and under surveillance (possibly in the Tower)… Treason would be a good justification for executing her and she would be undeniably guilty if she try to claim the Crown and Spain would do no intervention in her favor as they would push England in the French camp…
Exactly
At which point did all the nunneries and abbeys get closed down? I think some of the oldest ones survived during the time of Henry VIII due to one of his wife’s rooting for them, as well as due to them and a couple monasteries actually being centuries old, rather than something a century old that drained the tithes of rural churches in order to let the second sons of nobility live off stipends in towns. Maybe she gets put in one of those. With Mary’s age she wouldn’t be seen as the biggest price, when there are many mail heirs around, plus some younger female ones. Might be she is married to a widower, who already has plenty of heirs. Means that a minor dynastic alliance is formed for his lifetime. If she has kids, even at her age and with her mother having a history of miscarriages? It would be all fine and dandy, but the widower’s elder currently would be the ones inheriting his lands, so any sin she had would have far less of a economic and political base for trying to claim the crown.
Eliminating a threat by execution usually creates bigger ones (Martyrs are dangerous).
Generally speaking though martyrs are dangerous because the cause is more than just their life, whereas a pretender's cause - you might have faux-(pretender), but even that's not a given.
If the Grey of this thread becomes and stays King instead of Mary the way Jean did not stay Queen OTL, there's no really good reason (by the practices of the day) not to execute Mary here IMO.
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Confine her in the tower, then do a Warwick with her. Claim she tried to escape and then "OFF WITH HER HEAD!"
If they weren't shut down by henry 8 then Edward probably finished the job. He shut down a lot more institutions than his father iirc.
Personally i think that she'd ultimately be put under house arrest and/or put under the care of a very loyal ally after a stay in the tower for a few years. I can't honestly think that John & Liz would be at all comfortable letting her wed and risk her having legitimate children.