James V, King of Scotland marries earlier and has children.

[VVD0D95]

Slightly random thought that came to me earlier today. Otl James V didn't marry until he was in his late twenties, first to Madeleine Valois and then to Mary of Guise. But, what if he had married earlier, when he was in his early twenties?

Perhaps to a surviving Charlotte of France? (I'm presuming that Charlotte's betrothal to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor would be cancelled the moment the man decides to wed Isabella of Portugal.

So, perhaps something like this:

James V, King of Scots (b.1512) m Charlotte of France (b.1518) in 1532.

Issue:

James, Duke of Rothesay (b.1534)

stillborn son (b.1535: d.1535)

Margaret Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1537)

Arthur, Duke of Albany (b.1539)

Claude Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1541)

stillborn daughter (b.1543: d.1543)

Henry, Duke of Ross (b.1545)

Now, a part of me does think that this will change or butterfly away the Rough Wooing as there's no heiress for Henry VIII to try and marry his son Edward to, that could mean that James V himself does not die thanks to the illness that came from the Wooing. Additionally, I think that with James having children sooner, he may well feel more comfortable meeting Henry VIII at York as was proposed twice, once in the late 1530s and again in 1541. What results from these discussions I do not know, but would be interesting to see.

Also, I do think that James continues in his handling of heretics, and the like, seeing them burnt and driven out. Likely ensuring that his son receives the same views in his education.

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

@Kellan Sullivan @FalconHonour @The_Most_Happy @Jonathan @ordinarylittleme @The Professor @Tyler96 @FouDuRoy @isabella @HortenseMancini

 

[FouDuRoy]

James, Duke of Rothesay, would be 19 at the time of Edward VI's death in 1553.
Is there a chance that he could marry Mary I of England?
Sure, the age gap is enormous but the throne of England is probably enough of a motivation to ignore this.
It implies James takes the risk to not have any child if he fails to produce one with Mary in the short time she has for that but, considering he has two younger brothers to secure Scottish succession, I guess such a risk is not unreasonable.
Of course, I am unsure what Mary would think about the idea.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

James is a perfect age to marry Elizabeth Tudor thou.

 

[VVD0D95]

James, Duke of Rothesay, would be 19 at the time of Edward VI's death in 1553.
Is there a chance that he could marry Mary I of England?
Sure, the age gap is enormous but the throne of England is probably enough of a motivation to ignore this.
It implies James takes the risk to not have any child if he fails to produce one with Mary in the short time she has for that but, considering he has two younger brothers to secure Scottish succession, I guess such a risk is not unreasonable.
Of course, I am unsure what Mary would think about the idea.

I think it's possible, though Mary wanted to marry someone of an equal rank otl, hence why Phil was created King of Naples before their marriage. Maybe, a marriage between Jimmy and Elizabeth?

James is a perfect age to marry Elizabeth Tudor thou.

Indeed, maybe a marriage suggested by Philip?

 

[FouDuRoy]

James is a perfect age to marry Elizabeth Tudor thou.

Yeah, but the difference of religion is a problem. This is why I suggested Mary herself instead of Elizabeth.

 

[VVD0D95]

Yeah, but the difference of religion is a problem. This is why I suggested Mary herself instead of Elizabeth.

Hmm tbis is true though if mary get it into her head that Elizabeth would be good in Scotland would Liz be able to say no?

 

[The_Most_Happy]

This would be very interesting as I could definitely see Mary I giving the deeply Catholic James V the succession before she gave it to Elizabeth or any of the Douglases.

Only thing is, it's a long time from 1524, when Charlotte died OTL. There's a lot of things that could happen. Catherine of Aragon is thirty-nine: there's not an impossible chance for a son (devil's advocate here). Anne Boleyn could have a surviving son, or Elizabeth could be a boy. With an available French princess of age, Henry VIII could make a play for Charlotte himself and leave Anne as a mistress. Jane Seymour could survive her fever and go on to have another son. Edward VI could have better health and survive to marry Charlotte's niece. Hell, Anne of Cleves could get a wedding night reprieve and a Duke of York.

It's a good idea and an interesting one that I'd love to see play out, but I don't think you'll get the same or even close to the same OTL scenario.

 

[VVD0D95]

This would be very interesting as I could definitely see Mary I giving the deeply Catholic James V the succession before she gave it to Elizabeth or any of the Douglases.

Only thing is, it's a long time from 1524, when Charlotte died OTL. There's a lot of things that could happen. Catherine of Aragon is thirty-nine: there's not an impossible chance for a son (devil's advocate here). Anne Boleyn could have a surviving son, or Elizabeth could be a boy. With an available French princess of age, Henry VIII could make a play for Charlotte himself and leave Anne as a mistress. Jane Seymour could survive her fever and go on to have another son. Edward VI could have better health and survive to marry Charlotte's niece. Hell, Anne of Cleves could get a wedding night reprieve and a Duke of York.

It's a good idea and an interesting one that I'd love to see play out, but I don't think you'll get the same or even close to the same OTL scenario.

Hmm this is very true, drat. One imagines that when Charles spurns Charlotte ttl, Henry might come into the picture, perhaps angling to get a betrothal (if Anne's being difficult for example) assuming that Catherine doesn't have a son here. Which might make Francis consider it. Of course I suppose it depends upon how horny Henry is, and whether he wants Anne now, or a more prestigious bride. Anne of course won't be his mistress no?

I do suppose if Henry starts getting interested in Charlotte, James may well look to Isabella of Navarre, who I think was suggested otl by Margaret of Angouleme.

 

[GrandMaster]

Here would be Henry VIII's thoughts on this marriage:

 

[VVD0D95]

Here would be Henry VIII's thoughts on this marriage:

Lol

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Hmm this is very true, drat. One imagines that when Charles spurns Charlotte ttl, Henry might come into the picture, perhaps angling to get a betrothal (if Anne's being difficult for example) assuming that Catherine doesn't have a son here. Which might make Francis consider it. Of course I suppose it depends upon how horny Henry is, and whether he wants Anne now, or a more prestigious bride. Anne of course won't be his mistress no?

Well, Charles married Isabella in 1526, which is the same year that Henry VIII started to pursue Anne Boleyn. At this time, a new marriage isn't even on Henry's mind - he's just chasing the fine Boleyn girl. So you could probably get away without Henry really noticing that Charlotte's up for grabs - maybe he gets pissy about his nephew marrying a French princess instead of Mary, but by the time he's seriously pursuing divorce, Charlotte would be most likely betrothed to James.

 

[VVD0D95]

Well, Charles married Isabella in 1526, which is the same year that Henry VIII started to pursue Anne Boleyn. At this time, a new marriage isn't even on Henry's mind - he's just chasing the fine Boleyn girl. So you could probably get away without Henry really noticing that Charlotte's up for grabs - maybe he gets pissy about his nephew marrying a French princess instead of Mary, but by the time he's seriously pursuing divorce, Charlotte would be most likely betrothed to James.

Hmm tbis is true, you know this has got my mind wondering, what happens if during his pursuit of Anne, around the mid 1520s, Catherine passes away? Does Henry take the plunge and marry Anne?

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Hmm tbis is true, you know this has got my mind wondering, what happens if during his pursuit of Anne, around the mid 1520s, Catherine passes away? Does Henry take the plunge and marry Anne?

You could have Catherine catch the Sweat in 1528. Leaves Henry free and clear, in good standing with the Pope, and without the scandal of the Great Matter.

Also leaves Mary legitimate, which creates all sorts of interesting marriage options.

 

[Jonathan1997]

I wonder if James could get otl Elizabeth I of England marred into the Stuart family you would have thought with the Tudor line being very fine Henry would want some grandchildren.

I have read that Edward V or Vi depending how you count the numbers has a child hood illness that persisted throughout his life which killed him. Also I think he was poisoned as well going by his final days.

As for geriatric pregnancy starts at 35 years old and it gets harder for a woman to get pregnant when they are in there 30s and 40s. My the may I am not making that up just Google it or reading book I am not lying.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

As for geriatric pregnancy starts at 35 years old and it gets harder for a woman to get pregnant when they are in there 30s and 40s. My the may I am not making that up just Google it or reading book I am not lying.

I know, I'm an obstetrics nurse studying to be a midwife it's not easy to get pregnant at that age but it's entirely possible - women can naturally get pregnant into their mid forties.

 

[Jonathan1997]

I know, I'm an obstetrics nurse studying to be a midwife it's not easy to get pregnant at that age but it's entirely possible - women can naturally get pregnant into their mid forties.

True but it's a lot harder I know a woman that wants to get into property developer but she will be in her mid to late 30s before even in a position with a good income.

For most people it's the 30s and 40s when you have the most professional success it's just a lot harder to get pregnant.

With Mary I being over wait and next to no exercise it would be a lot harder fatness in this time period was a status symbol.

If you wish to talk about late pregnancy start a thread or message me privately.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Anyway, with a 1526 starting point, you have a lot of options to play with.

 

[VVD0D95]

You could have Catherine catch the Sweat in 1528. Leaves Henry free and clear, in good standing with the Pope, and without the scandal of the Great Matter.

Also leaves Mary legitimate, which creates all sorts of interesting marriage options.

Oh agreed, also completely modifies possible marriage choices for james. Hmmm, this does make me wonder what to go for. What would be of most interest?

 

[FouDuRoy]

Hmm tbis is true though if mary get it into her head that Elizabeth would be good in Scotland would Liz be able to say no?

Of course not but would Mary want a Protestant as future queen consort of Scotland? And would James want a Protestant as future queen consort of Scotland?
That could only strengthen the Protestant cause.

If Mary herself marries James, the two would try to produce a child.
If they succeed, this child will be the Catholic heir of both Scotland and England.
If they fail, things become interesting as Mary would probably try to revoke Henry VIII's will and make James her heir, arguing Elizabeth is a bastard. And even if the parliament refuses, James will try to take the throne of England after Mary's death. Being already king consort would likely help him and he would have much better chances than Mary QoS in OTL.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Oh agreed, also completely modifies possible marriage choices for james. Hmmm, this does make me wonder what to go for. What would be of most interest?

Personally, I always love Mary in Scotland, but James hated the English pretty vehemently from what I understand and wanted his French match as laid out in the Treaty of Rouen.

Plus, if Mary's legitimate, once Henry and Anne have a son (especially since they're marrying 5 years earlier), Henry could marry her to the Dauphin and make his own French alliance. Or Portugal or Savoy or even Charles V if Isabella of Portugal dies earlier