James V and Mary of Guise have surviving male issue.

So, this is something I've been wondering for a little while.

James V and Mary of Guise had two sons who ended up dying in infancy: James, Duke of Rothesay and Robert/Arthur Duke of Albany.

Say both boys survive their infancy and live into adulthood, what butterlfies could this have for Scotland and Europe?

Would one potential butterfly be James V not dying in 1542?

Who could both boys marry? A French marriage or somewhere else?

Would the Scottish reformation proceed as it did otl, with there being two male heirs in the country?

And about the fate of Mary, if indeed the girl is still born.
 
What an interesting prospect! I've often wondered the same.

I guess that provided the French alliance remained in place then the elder of the boys could perhaps marry a French princess. Also, I guess it's possible their sister Mary could still marry the Dauphin - though as she would only be a Scottish princess rather than a reigning Queen she might not be quite so tempting a prospect.

If James V didn't die in 1542 then that could certainly slow - if not necessarily stop - the Scottish reformation as I believe that he was a fairly devout Catholic. Even if he did die in 1542 as per OTL, the fact that the new King (let's say James VI) would be permanently based in Scotland and would be under the influence of a Catholic mother might again slow the reformation down.
 
What an interesting prospect! I've often wondered the same.

I guess that provided the French alliance remained in place then the elder of the boys could perhaps marry a French princess. Also, I guess it's possible their sister Mary could still marry the Dauphin - though as she would only be a Scottish princess rather than a reigning Queen she might not be quite so tempting a prospect.

If James V didn't die in 1542 then that could certainly slow - if not necessarily stop - the Scottish reformation as I believe that he was a fairly devout Catholic. Even if he did die in 1542 as per OTL, the fact that the new King (let's say James VI) would be permanently based in Scotland and would be under the influence of a Catholic mother might again slow the reformation down.

Alright interesting, would they risk using two potential valuable bargaining tools with the same kingdom?

And okay, so do you not think the King would convert then?
 
What an interesting prospect! I've often wondered the same.

I guess that provided the French alliance remained in place then the elder of the boys could perhaps marry a French princess. Also, I guess it's possible their sister Mary could still marry the Dauphin - though as she would only be a Scottish princess rather than a reigning Queen she might not be quite so tempting a prospect.

If James V didn't die in 1542 then that could certainly slow - if not necessarily stop - the Scottish reformation as I believe that he was a fairly devout Catholic. Even if he did die in 1542 as per OTL, the fact that the new King (let's say James VI) would be permanently based in Scotland and would be under the influence of a Catholic mother might again slow the reformation down.

Henry VIII saw himself as a devout Catholic until the day he died - he just had a few problems with the pope/papacy. It was possible for a king to be a devout Catholic and still turn a blind-eye to the Reformation if it suited his purposes. Marie de Guise had been raised with Anne Boleyn and co. at the French court, so she would've probably attempted to walk a tightrope between what was seen as "humanism" and "outright heretical". Probably influence her son to do the same - whether she's successful is another story entirely.
 
Henry VIII saw himself as a devout Catholic until the day he died - he just had a few problems with the pope/papacy. It was possible for a king to be a devout Catholic and still turn a blind-eye to the Reformation if it suited his purposes. Marie de Guise had been raised with Anne Boleyn and co. at the French court, so she would've probably attempted to walk a tightrope between what was seen as "humanism" and "outright heretical". Probably influence her son to do the same - whether she's successful is another story entirely.

Interesting would such things involve imagery and the slightly exhuberant ceremonies associated with the Catholic Church then?
 
Interesting would such things involve imagery and the slightly exhuberant ceremonies associated with the Catholic Church then?

It's possible. James VI argued with the lords about the usage of the annointing oil in the coronation ceremony of Queen Anne, for instance - they considered it to smack of papistry and Jamie pointed out that it was used in the Bible, so there! (stick tongue out). Or you could see these boys taking a stance like Mary did OTL - I haven't heard/read that she emulated her cousin/namesake in England with burnings - where the royal family remains Catholic (nominally) and the country becomes more and more Protestant.

Or not.
 
It's possible. James VI argued with the lords about the usage of the annointing oil in the coronation ceremony of Queen Anne, for instance - they considered it to smack of papistry and Jamie pointed out that it was used in the Bible, so there! (stick tongue out). Or you could see these boys taking a stance like Mary did OTL - I haven't heard/read that she emulated her cousin/namesake in England with burnings - where the royal family remains Catholic (nominally) and the country becomes more and more Protestant.

Or not.
Alright is there a way by which the new king could take firm control of the reformation an bend it to their will? Or would it be too late by the time they're old enough to do so?
 
Henry VIII will be offering his son as husband to Mary (if born), as OTL? He knows the Scots heirs male often fail to thrive (but fails to see it in himself.)
 
This is true. Rough wooing still goes ahead?

Not a "rough wooing" per say, it's just gonna be an attempt for her to marry the Prince of Wales that most likely Scotland is more perceptive to. Hell, Scotland might even try for a match between Elizabeth and the Duke of Rothesay, as they're only 7 years apart. Henry would dangle that but it'll go nowhere.
 
Not a "rough wooing" per say, it's just gonna be an attempt for her to marry the Prince of Wales that most likely Scotland is more perceptive to. Hell, Scotland might even try for a match between Elizabeth and the Duke of Rothesay, as they're only 7 years apart. Henry would dangle that but it'll go nowhere.

Hmm interesting. So a more muted invasion as it were? Interesting. Would it be more or less interesting if James V were to survive?
 
Ok so here's my thoughts:

James V of Scotland is probably not going to live much longer, as his illness was a thing based off his war with England, which will occur similar to OTL. So let's have Marie of Guise act as Regent for her eldest son. He's probably going to be betrothed to a French girl, which I'd guess to be Elisabeth de Valois or Claude de Valois. I'd say Claude, as Catherine de Medici is going to want her eldest daughter to marry better, plus it allows all three daughters to marry Kings. If we have Mary still marry Francis II of France for a time, which is likely if just because it's a decent match on both sides, then she might actually marry the Duke of Lorraine following his death. Now the second son, Arthur, is going to either make some form of domestic match or just a match outside of France. Claude de Valois is not going to live forever, so there's going to be a second Queen of Scots; I'd say either Denmark or some Germanic Dynasty.

James V of Scotland (b.1512: d.1542) m. Madeleine de France (b.1520: d.1537) (a), Marie de Guise (b.1515: d.1560) (a)

1a) James VI of Scotland (b.1540: d.1601) m. Claude de Valois (b.1547: d.1572) (a), Magdalene of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1553: d.1633) (b)

1a) James VII of Scotland (b.1565)

2a) Margaret Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1566)

3a) Marie Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1567: d.1567)

4a) Alexander Stewart, Duke of Ross (b.1569)

5a) Claude Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1570)

6a) Arthur Stewart (b.1572: d.1572)

7a) William Stewart, Earl of Moray (b.1575)

8a) Elisabeth Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1577)

9a) Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1580: d.1581)

10a) John Stewart, Earl of Orkney (b.1583)

11a) Magdalene Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1584)

12a) Eleanor Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1587: d.1587)

13a) Joan Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1590)​

2a) Arthur Stewart, Duke of Albany (b.1541: d.1575) m. Margaret Hamilton (b.1540: d.1615) (a)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1560)

2a) Margaret Stewart of Albany (b.1564)

3a) Charles Stewart, 2nd Duke of Albany (b.1567: d.1580)

4a) Miscarriage (c.1571)​

3a) Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1542: d.1599) m. Francis II of France (b.1544: d.1560) (a), Charles III, Duke of Lorraine (b.1543: d.1608) (b)

1a) Marie of Lorraine (b.1563)

2a) Charles of Lorraine (b.1564: d.1565)

3a) Francis II, Duke of Lorraine (b.1566)

4a) Christine of Lorraine (b.1569)

5a) Stillborn Son (c.1571)

6a) Marguerite of Lorraine (b.1574)

7a) Antoine of Lorraine, Cardinal of Lorraine (b.1577)

8a) Elisabeth of Lorraine (b.1581)​
 
It's interesting either way, but it's more likely that he doesn't survive.

Okay very true. And also very interesting tree there, with a lot of children for James VI, so no issue with the succession for future generations. I do wonder how Edward VI, and later Elizabeth will handle this, knowing that their future successor is likely going to be a Catholic.
 
Okay very true. And also very interesting tree there, with a lot of children for James VI, so no issue with the succession for future generations. I do wonder how Edward VI, and later Elizabeth will handle this, knowing that their future successor is likely going to be a Catholic.

Edward might not die young here. I mean, with a POD essentially in the 1540s, and even if he does, Henry VIII might still have another male heir (perhaps of questionable legitimacy) by Ms Howard.
 
Edward might not die young here. I mean, with a POD essentially in the 1540s, and even if he does, Henry VIII might still have another male heir (perhaps of questionable legitimacy) by Ms Howard.

Hmm very true, which in turn does make things highly interesting in regards to whether that ever gets brought up
 
Given the above (theoretical) for the Scottish line, Edward VI will wed Jane Grey (b fall 1536 or spring 1537) on his fourteenth birthday (12 Oct 1551), with Jane giving birth to Edward, Prince of Wales on 1 Nov 1552; Edward's fatal illness - because of his wife's loving care, is delayed until March 1554, with him dying in the fall of that year. By then, however, Jane has given birth to Henry, Duke of York (10 Sep 1553) and Jane, Princess Royal (9 August 1554). Now we have a King born in lawful matrimony who is the son of Henry VIII's indisputably legal wife Jane *nee Seymour*. And a regency.

Edward VI gives his sister Mary in marriage to a younger son (religion less important to him than just getting her out of the country) and does the same with sister Elizabeth. So long as Mary's spouse is Catholic, she's not going to be in much of a position to refuse - under church law - and since she'd love to be a wife and mother, she'll go when Jane pops out Eddie Jr. Elizabeth might be the problem, but if she refuses, she'll be in royal custody under guard. Or shipped off to serve Mary in a foreign country. Once E6 dies, if she's in England, she's definitely in custody.
 
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Given the above (theoretical) for the Scottish line, Edward VI will wed Jane Grey (b fall 1536 or spring 1537) on his fourteenth birthday (12 Oct 1551), with Jane giving birth to Edward, Prince of Wales on 1 Nov 1552; Edward's fatal illness - because of his wife's loving care, is delayed until March 1554, with him dying in the fall of that year. By then, however, Jane has given birth to Henry, Duke of York (10 Sep 1553) and Jane, Princess Royal (9 August 1554).

Oh interesting, so no French match for Edward VI? Does Elisabeth de Valois move straight to Carlos then?
 
At this point Edward's interest is in getting himself an heir to avoid a Catholic monarch and he's marrying in-country because it's faster and fraught with less difficulties.
 
At this point Edward's interest is in getting himself an heir to avoid a Catholic monarch and he's marrying in-country because it's faster and fraught with less difficulties.

Alright makes sense. Which is now giving me ideas for another alt history aha.

So yes, Seymour dominating the early regency for Edward VI, would he propose this marriage? Or would that be Dudley?

As for in Scotland, would Mary of Guise rule alone as regent, or would Arran vie for influence?
 
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