James IV survives Flodden Field

Sorry if this has been done before, but what I was wondering is what happens if James IV does not die at FLodden field and instead leads a retreat of the Scots army back into friendly territory?

How might this influence relations with England and France? As well as the papacy considering James IV had been excommunicated before the battle.
 
If the battle still goes as badly as it did IOTL, only that James survives, he could take a prestige hit that causes volatility at home (but then again, an entire generation of the nobility has just been wiped out, so I'm not sure if they're capable of causing any trouble).
 
James is forced back to Scotland and Margaret might give him another 3/4 children, and let's say 2 of them survive. Already it's been suggested that Arthur Stewart survives, so let's give him 2 younger daughters, named Margaret and Elizabeth (1516 and 1519).

James IV of Scotland (b.1473: d.1524) m. Margaret Tudor (b.1489: d.1541) (a)

1a) James Stuart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1507: d.1508)

2a) Stillborn Girl (c.1508)

3a) Arthur I of Scotland (b.1509) m. Renee of France (b.1510) (a)

1a) Margaret Stewart (b.1530)

2a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1532)

3a) Stillborn Boy (c.1535)

4a) Alexander Stewart (b.1537: d.1538)​

4a) James Stewart, Duke of Ross (b.1512: d.1549) m. Isabella of Navarre (b.1512: d.1555) (a)

1a) Mary Stewart, Duchess of Ross (b.1531)

2a) Stillborn Girl (c.1533)

3a) James Stewart (b.1535: d.1541)

4a) Margaret Stewart (b.1538: d.1540)

5a) Stillborn Boy (c.1541)​

5a) Stillborn Girl (c.1512)

6a) Alexander Stewart (b.1515: d.1515)

7a) Margaret Stewart (b.1516: d.1540) m. William la Marck, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1516) (a)

1a) Marie Elisabeth of Cleves (b.1534)

2a) William of Cleves (b.1535)

3a) John of Cleves (b.1536)

4a) Charles of Cleves (b.1537: d.1539)

5a) Eleanor of Cleves (b.1539)

6a) Magdalena of Cleves (b.1540)​

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1517)

9a) Elizabeth Stewart (b.1519) m. Henry II of France (b.1519) (a)

1a) Margaret de Valois (b.1540)

2a) Elisabeth de Valois (b.1542: d.1543)

3a) Claude de Valois (b.1543)

4a) Francis de Valois, Dauphin of France (b.1544)

5a) Stillborn Boy (c.1545)

6a) Madeline de Valois (b.1547)

7a) Henri de Valois, Duke of Orleans (b.1550)

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1551)

9a) Joan de Valois (b.1553)

10a) Charles de Valois, Duke of Anjou (b.1555)​

10a) Alexander Stewart (b.1521: d.1521)​
 
If the battle still goes as badly as it did IOTL, only that James survives, he could take a prestige hit that causes volatility at home (but then again, an entire generation of the nobility has just been wiped out, so I'm not sure if they're capable of causing any trouble).

Okay hmm, how might one make the battle go slightly better for James and the Scots?

James is forced back to Scotland and Margaret might give him another 3/4 children, and let's say 2 of them survive. Already it's been suggested that Arthur Stewart survives, so let's give him 2 younger daughters, named Margaret and Elizabeth (1516 and 1519).

James IV of Scotland (b.1473: d.1524) m. Margaret Tudor (b.1489: d.1541) (a)

1a) James Stuart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1507: d.1508)

2a) Stillborn Girl (c.1508)

3a) Arthur I of Scotland (b.1509) m. Renee of France (b.1510) (a)

1a) Margaret Stewart (b.1530)

2a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1532)

3a) Stillborn Boy (c.1535)

4a) Alexander Stewart (b.1537: d.1538)​

4a) James Stewart, Duke of Ross (b.1512: d.1549) m. Isabella of Navarre (b.1512: d.1555) (a)

1a) Mary Stewart, Duchess of Ross (b.1531)

2a) Stillborn Girl (c.1533)

3a) James Stewart (b.1535: d.1541)

4a) Margaret Stewart (b.1538: d.1540)

5a) Stillborn Boy (c.1541)​

5a) Stillborn Girl (c.1512)

6a) Alexander Stewart (b.1515: d.1515)

7a) Margaret Stewart (b.1516: d.1540) m. William la Marck, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b.1516) (a)

1a) Marie Elisabeth of Cleves (b.1534)

2a) William of Cleves (b.1535)

3a) John of Cleves (b.1536)

4a) Charles of Cleves (b.1537: d.1539)

5a) Eleanor of Cleves (b.1539)

6a) Magdalena of Cleves (b.1540)​

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1517)

9a) Elizabeth Stewart (b.1519) m. Henry II of France (b.1519) (a)

1a) Margaret de Valois (b.1540)

2a) Elisabeth de Valois (b.1542: d.1543)

3a) Claude de Valois (b.1543)

4a) Francis de Valois, Dauphin of France (b.1544)

5a) Stillborn Boy (c.1545)

6a) Madeline de Valois (b.1547)

7a) Henri de Valois, Duke of Orleans (b.1550)

8a) Stillborn Boy (c.1551)

9a) Joan de Valois (b.1553)

10a) Charles de Valois, Duke of Anjou (b.1555)​

10a) Alexander Stewart (b.1521: d.1521)​

Okay interesting, so a marriage to Rene of France to confirm the Auld Alliance. Furthermore, as Rene was a strong protector of protestants in OTL and actually became a follower of Calvin, what consequences might her marriage to Arthur bring this time around? Would she remain a Catholic? What might happen if Henry still breaks from Rome?
 
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So James IV survives Flodden Field and returns to Scotland, where he reigns for another shall we say eleven years before dying in 1524. During this time, he begins regrouping his position within Scotland, that was damaged by the defeat and the fact that so many of the nobles are dead. Due to the new nobility being hyoung and inexperienced, perhaps James manages to consolidate his hold over power and dominate certain aspects of political life in Scotland, he might begin looking into this new thing coming about from the mainland as well
 
So James IV survives Flodden Field and returns to Scotland, where he reigns for another shall we say eleven years before dying in 1524. During this time, he begins regrouping his position within Scotland, that was damaged by the defeat and the fact that so many of the nobles are dead. Due to the new nobility being hyoung and inexperienced, perhaps James manages to consolidate his hold over power and dominate certain aspects of political life in Scotland, he might begin looking into this new thing coming about from the mainland as well

What's the age of majority in Scotland? Because Arthur will only be ~15 at his father's death. Margaret can probably manage a few years as regent without stuffing up too badly (plus she's more experienced and has a near-adult son, which makes her position more stable).

What does Albany do? The success of James and Margaret's marriage means he's been bumped down from heir presumptive to 3rd or 4th in line.


Not sure about all these continental matches- would the French 'waste' two royal marriages on a relative backwater like Scotland. Surely continental matches are more important given the fight against the Emperor?

What does either side get from a Scottish-Navarrese match?

Then again, all of James I's kids bar one had continental marriages, so...

In another question, how might James IV win Flodden Field?

He did have a significant numerical advantage. IIRC prior a few days prior to the battle the Scots had fortified a hill in a relatively foreboding manner, but the English declined to attack and instead moved north of the Scots who, worried about being cut off from Scotland, abandoned their defences. So, maybe a less astute commander for the English sees them just attack the Scots headlong?

At the actual battle the Scots also got caught up in marshy ground, so better weather or a different battle-site could make a difference.
 
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So, the match to the duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg might still go, France considers Scotland a good friend, so it's very likely that the French try to bring their friends together.

A match with Renee of France seems a bit unlikely. OTL the French married her off to a minor Italian duke (despite her being daughter of the king of France and sister of the queen, plus possible heiress to the duchy of Britany (probably the reason she was fobbed off to a lesser man than a foreign king)). OTL, she was never considered for James V, even though the French had allowed a marriage between Marguerite d'Angoulême and the king of Navarre (where the age difference was greater), so IDK if Arthur might be forced to be engaged first to Louise, then Charlotte, then Madeleine de Valois (the older two can live rather easily (since I think it was measles or somesuch that killed one of them)).

A marriage for a younger Scots princess to the duc d'Orléans, again not very likely, since until Henri's marriage to Catherine de Medicis, he was the leading candidate by the English if Mary Tudor (the Younger) should marry a Frenchman, although the French were to prefer François I or the dauphin until both became impossible. A Scots princess, who's not even the oldest amongst her sisters, won't get a very prestigious match (the main reason James I's daughters could fly so high OTL was due to the fact that there were no English princesses available), maybe a royal duke (Ferrara, Florence, Milan (possibly)), or another German prince of pinchbeck, but a French second son for a younger daughter, seems a bit of a stretch to me. Maybe if Margaret could get Henri II (but with a POD at Flodden, we have no clue how French history would look), it might still go, but Elizabeth is, as I said (unless it seems like none of her siblings will produce issue) a stretch.
 
What's the age of majority in Scotland? Because Arthur will only be ~15 at his father's death. Margaret can probably manage a few years as regent without stuffing up too badly (plus she's more experienced and has a near-adult son, which makes her position more stable).

What does Albany do? The success of James and Margaret's marriage means he's been bumped down from heir presumptive to 3rd or 4th in line.



Not sure about all these continental matches- would the French 'waste' two royal marriages on a relative backwater like Scotland. Surely continental matches are more important given the fight against the Emperor?

What does either side get from a Scottish-Navarrese match?

Then again, all of James I's kids bar one had continental marriages, so...



He did have a significant numerical advantage. IIRC prior a few days prior to the battle the Scots had fortified a hill in a relatively foreboding manner, but the English declined to attack and instead moved north of the Scots who, worried about being cut off from Scotland, abandoned their defences. So, maybe a less astute commander for the English sees them just attack the Scots headlong?

At the actual battle the Scots also got caught up in marshy ground, so better weather or a different battle-site could make a difference.

Okay interesting, I am considering having James IV win at Flodden, just trying to think what the consequences might be. I think James V took his majority at fourteen, so there is some leeway. As for Albany, I presume he'd either be back in France, or perhaps trying to get a handle in government. I do think the Duke of Rothesay would definitely marry a French princess, prestige and all that.

So, the match to the duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg might still go, France considers Scotland a good friend, so it's very likely that the French try to bring their friends together.

A match with Renee of France seems a bit unlikely. OTL the French married her off to a minor Italian duke (despite her being daughter of the king of France and sister of the queen, plus possible heiress to the duchy of Britany (probably the reason she was fobbed off to a lesser man than a foreign king)). OTL, she was never considered for James V, even though the French had allowed a marriage between Marguerite d'Angoulême and the king of Navarre (where the age difference was greater), so IDK if Arthur might be forced to be engaged first to Louise, then Charlotte, then Madeleine de Valois (the older two can live rather easily (since I think it was measles or somesuch that killed one of them)).

A marriage for a younger Scots princess to the duc d'Orléans, again not very likely, since until Henri's marriage to Catherine de Medicis, he was the leading candidate by the English if Mary Tudor (the Younger) should marry a Frenchman, although the French were to prefer François I or the dauphin until both became impossible. A Scots princess, who's not even the oldest amongst her sisters, won't get a very prestigious match (the main reason James I's daughters could fly so high OTL was due to the fact that there were no English princesses available), maybe a royal duke (Ferrara, Florence, Milan (possibly)), or another German prince of pinchbeck, but a French second son for a younger daughter, seems a bit of a stretch to me. Maybe if Margaret could get Henri II (but with a POD at Flodden, we have no clue how French history would look), it might still go, but Elizabeth is, as I said (unless it seems like none of her siblings will produce issue) a stretch.

Hmm interesting, though if the marriage were to occur when Louis XII is still on the throne, might the marriage happen as a security for the alliance?

Anmd hmm interesting, so Elizabeth could marry within Scotland if not abroad, to give her father and then brother more control over some of the nobility
 
Also, let's say that Henry VIII breaks from Rome, how might this influence things within Scotland? Would James IV still have been excommunicated from the church?
 
Well, if James does live at Flodden, then there's no reason for Mary Tudor to marry Louis; it was only to undermine Scotland and ally with France that it occurred anyway. There's no point in undermining Scotland this time -- they've lost, James is humiliated; Mary's marriage might swing the other way and she may actually go through with the Charles V marriage, thus negating the Brandon-Grey-Clifford-Seymour lines.
 
Well, if James does live at Flodden, then there's no reason for Mary Tudor to marry Louis; it was only to undermine Scotland and ally with France that it occurred anyway. There's no point in undermining Scotland this time -- they've lost, James is humiliated; Mary's marriage might swing the other way and she may actually go through with the Charles V marriage, thus negating the Brandon-Grey-Clifford-Seymour lines.

I was under the impression Mary marrying Louis had to do with the fact that Henry got pissed with his father-in-law and nephew's double dealing? Plus, does James surviving Flodden necessarily mean that that's the last battle of that "war"? I mean, I've read that Flodden was a bit like Mohacs in a way, but surely it doesn't mean that James won't get it into his head to try and fight the English again, especially if he feels they're meddling in his affairs.
 
Well, if James does live at Flodden, then there's no reason for Mary Tudor to marry Louis; it was only to undermine Scotland and ally with France that it occurred anyway. There's no point in undermining Scotland this time -- they've lost, James is humiliated; Mary's marriage might swing the other way and she may actually go through with the Charles V marriage, thus negating the Brandon-Grey-Clifford-Seymour lines.
Okay, and if James wins at Flodden, what then?

I was under the impression Mary marrying Louis had to do with the fact that Henry got pissed with his father-in-law and nephew's double dealing? Plus, does James surviving Flodden necessarily mean that that's the last battle of that "war"? I mean, I've read that Flodden was a bit like Mohacs in a way, but surely it doesn't mean that James won't get it into his head to try and fight the English again, especially if he feels they're meddling in his affairs.

Indeed this is true, James IV might come south again, especially if he wins Flodden, hell he wins Flodden he's going further south until he's stopped.
 
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