James ii and Mary of Modena have a son in 1674

In 1674, Mary of Modena the wife of James, duke of York as he was known then suffered a miscarriage. If instead of delivering a miscarriage she’d had a surviving son, named either Charles or James, what would have changes? One assumes the boy would be raised Anglican per his uncle the kings orders, which leads to some interesting things once James ascends the throne as James II in 1685. Would James try to convert his son to Catholicism? Would the boy convert or remain Anglican? Would the exclusionists want James removed and replaced by his son in the succession?

And with the kid being like his uncle instead of his father, in political terms what could this all do?

And whom might he marry? A French Orléans bride perhaps?
 
James II's 2 daughters were devout Protestants, weren't they? If they're close to the boy (I think he'd be called James like the later OTL son), it's likely that he'll remain Protestant. Plus I think that the exclusionists, if they're secure in the belief that Prince James is a Protestant, might let King James II take the throne and just wait him out (unless James II does something really outrageous).

The future James III and VIII would probably marry a Protestant in order to further assuage fears that he's a closet Catholic. Might I recommend Princess Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (1677-1735).
 
James II's 2 daughters were devout Protestants, weren't they? If they're close to the boy (I think he'd be called James like the later OTL son), it's likely that he'll remain Protestant. Plus I think that the exclusionists, if they're secure in the belief that Prince James is a Protestant, might let King James II take the throne and just wait him out (unless James II does something really outrageous).

The future James III and VIII would probably marry a Protestant in order to further assuage fears that he's a closet Catholic. Might I recommend Princess Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (1677-1735).
Sophia hedwig works well for his wife I agree, it also strengthens that alliance and makes for some interesting times for England
 
Charles II wasn't a fool and as with Mary and Anne of York he would insist on an Anglican education - that education in OTL ensured both the York girls remained devoutly Protestant - despite the conversions of their own mother, father and their step mother's Catholicism.
If a son is born early on the York marriage - then separation from his parents as was traditional with his own household is likely - I suspect Charles would dispatch the child to the Villiers who raised Anne and Mary at Richmond perhaps (Mary would be a teenager and Anne about ten or so) - or to his own separate household in another Royal residence with an appropriate education.
The boy is going to be around 11 at his father's accession - so the pressure on him from his parents to convert is going to be enormous and could go either way....assuming he's close to his sister then he may get some support to avoid his parents pressure from her and of course from Parliament - much depends on whether his father's actions are the same as in OTL on his accession.
Its an awkward age though - he's now Prince of Wales and tradition dictates that he automatically gets his own household sep from his parents but they may remove the tutors and guardians appointed by Charles II - I can see a battle royal between parents and child - on the other hand he may like his father and uncle already have Catholic leanings due to say a closeness to his parents etc - hard to say.
If he remains recalcitrantly Protestant and things proceed as in OTL - then its likely to be Long Live James III and VIII with a regency under Anne probably.
 
Charles II wasn't a fool and as with Mary and Anne of York he would insist on an Anglican education - that education in OTL ensured both the York girls remained devoutly Protestant - despite the conversions of their own mother, father and their step mother's Catholicism.
If a son is born early on the York marriage - then separation from his parents as was traditional with his own household is likely - I suspect Charles would dispatch the child to the Villiers who raised Anne and Mary at Richmond perhaps (Mary would be a teenager and Anne about ten or so) - or to his own separate household in another Royal residence with an appropriate education.
The boy is going to be around 11 at his father's accession - so the pressure on him from his parents to convert is going to be enormous and could go either way....assuming he's close to his sister then he may get some support to avoid his parents pressure from her and of course from Parliament - much depends on whether his father's actions are the same as in OTL on his accession.
Its an awkward age though - he's now Prince of Wales and tradition dictates that he automatically gets his own household sep from his parents but they may remove the tutors and guardians appointed by Charles II - I can see a battle royal between parents and child - on the other hand he may like his father and uncle already have Catholic leanings due to say a closeness to his parents etc - hard to say.
If he remains recalcitrantly Protestant and things proceed as in OTL - then its likely to be Long Live James III and VIII with a regency under Anne probably.
Oh now that's very interesting, seeing him under the villiers for a time and then perhaps another favourite perhaps Churchill?

And this is true, I imagine him being somewhat high church like anne but perhaps with some sympathies toward Catholicism.
 
Also with a surviving son would James and Mary try for a spare or be content to leave it as is?

And re their daughters, Catherine and Isabel who could they be married to?
 
Well if our boy (incidentally I think Charles might be more likely on reflection) is the 1674 pregnancy carried to term that rules out Catherine's OTL birth in 75 - long term its likely given Mary and Anne Hyde's record that the majority of children won't survive - (Anne was eight pregnancies and two surviving, Mary was two out of 12 known pregnancies) -

None of them are going to be old enough to marry before James accession and if he lasts a short time it depends whether he takes them with him when he flees - if so then they are a minor catch but not a strong one - and that depends on whether on their father's death they reconcile with their older brother... they of course might be young enough to be largely brought up as Catholics.
 
Well if our boy (incidentally I think Charles might be more likely on reflection) is the 1674 pregnancy carried to term that rules out Catherine's OTL birth in 75 - long term its likely given Mary and Anne Hyde's record that the majority of children won't survive - (Anne was eight pregnancies and two surviving, Mary was two out of 12 known pregnancies) -

None of them are going to be old enough to marry before James accession and if he lasts a short time it depends whether he takes them with him when he flees - if so then they are a minor catch but not a strong one - and that depends on whether on their father's death they reconcile with their older brother... they of course might be young enough to be largely brought up as Catholics.
Interesting so it's likely that then that the line ofnissue would go: Charles born 1674, James? Born 1677, Isabel born 1681.

Is it inevitable that James would have to flee or could he be waited our?
 
I suppose a lot depends on what happens but let's assume James follows his inclinations - Monmouth may or may not rebel, Parliament might see it worth waiting James out to be succeeded by the good Protestant Prince of Wales - but he is 11 - and they may well fear James and Mary will push him to convert or make him "too lenient" towards "Papists", the advantage for them is they don't have to distort the succession just depose or force James to abdicate -
The disadvantage for them is they are unlikely to have in this scenario foreign support in the guise of William of Orange.

You might see James prevail - force his son into a Catholic marriage in the early 1690s and hope for Catholic grandsons. You have a son who resents his father and longs for the day he succeeds.
 
I suppose a lot depends on what happens but let's assume James follows his inclinations - Monmouth may or may not rebel, Parliament might see it worth waiting James out to be succeeded by the good Protestant Prince of Wales - but he is 11 - and they may well fear James and Mary will push him to convert or make him "too lenient" towards "Papists", the advantage for them is they don't have to distort the succession just depose or force James to abdicate -
The disadvantage for them is they are unlikely to have in this scenario foreign support in the guise of William of Orange.

You might see James prevail - force his son into a Catholic marriage in the early 1690s and hope for Catholic grandsons. You have a son who resents his father and longs for the day he succeeds.
Hmm this is true, i can see William being reluctant to get involved due to James son being eleven and not a baby. He could
Provide funding to parliamentary dissidents for a coup against James and the installation of a regenxy. I don't think James would change much from otl, so he's going to be in hot water. Of course with an heir already, James could be more alert having more to lose with inaction. Somif he does survive and marries his son off to a catholic princess the question arises who?
 
Hmm this is true, i can see William being reluctant to get involved due to James son being eleven and not a baby. He could
Provide funding to parliamentary dissidents for a coup against James and the installation of a regenxy. I don't think James would change much from otl, so he's going to be in hot water. Of course with an heir already, James could be more alert having more to lose with inaction. Somif he does survive and marries his son off to a catholic princess the question arises who?
Austria and France who have to offer? After them Bavaria, Portugal, Savoy and other italian states
 
Also for
Monmouth could we see him attempting to either revolt or cause trouble for James II by leading the party that wants a regenxy?
 
Both Anna Maria (b.1674) and Maria Josepha (b.1675) of Austria, if they survive, can be viable candidates or their half-sisters Maria Christina (b.1679, OTL dead at birth) or Maria Elisabeth of Austria (b.1680).
For France Elisabeth Charlotte (b.1676) of Orleans is likely the only option unless James is willing to accept a more junior princess as daughter in law (aka the daughters of the Duke of Condè: Anne Marie Victoire b.1675, Anne Louise Bénédicte b.1676 or Marie Anne b.1678) but Louis XIV will need to pay a very big dowry (something like the two millions of livres he gave to his own nephew as dowry for his youngest (illegitimate) daughter)
 
Both Anna Maria (b.1674) and Maria Josepha (b.1675) of Austria, if they survive, can be viable candidates or their half-sisters Maria Christina (b.1679, OTL dead at birth) or Maria Elisabeth of Austria (b.1680).
For France Elisabeth Charlotte (b.1676) of Orleans is likely the only option unless James is willing to accept a more junior princess as daughter in law (aka the daughters of the Duke of Condè: Anne Marie Victoire b.1675, Anne Louise Bénédicte b.1676 or Marie Anne b.1678) but Louis XIV will need to pay a very big dowry (something like the two millions of livres he gave to his own nephew as dowry for his youngest (illegitimate) daughter)
Interesting given James own foreign policy preference, Elisabeth Charlotte seems most likely
 
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