Ivan the Terrible holds Narva

AH: Ivan IV pursued limited goals in the Livonian War concentrating exclusively on taking and keeping Narva as a port on the Baltic coast and it never was lost (in OTL it fall into the Swedish hands in 1581).

Existence of the Baltic port conveniently located to channel trade from Novgorod and Pskov should, in theory, remove the reason for Russian participation in the GNW: in OTL, while in the Swedish hands, it was the main outlet for the Russian trade and it was Peter’s 1st goal.

So would its possession be enough to keep Russia at peace with Sweden (assuming that Peter I is driven by a pragmatism and not abstract ideas)?

Would it grow into something much greater than in OTL where it was dwarfed by St Petersburg, Riga and Tallin?
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Would it be adequate for the growing trade? After all, it was convenient for the traffic going through Pskov (map above) and not too much so for Novgorod (map below); of course, not prohibitively inconvenient because it did happen.

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What would be consequences (for all OTL participants) of Russia not being engaged in a prolonged war with Sweden?
 
So would its possession be enough to keep Russia at peace with Sweden (assuming that Peter I is driven by a pragmatism and not abstract ideas)?
If no Treaty of Stolbovo happens and Russia keeps Ingria, then Novgorod aglomeration would likely develop a port in place of OTL St. Petersburg roughly where Nien was located, on the banks of Okhta river (a settlement named Nevskoye Ustye apparently was there, which may be later prettified to Ust-Nevsk); Narva and this town would likely serve the Baltic trade well.
Archangelsk on the other hand remains underdeveloped backwater instead of sole major port of Russia for a century.
 
On the other hand, trade through Narva and Ust-Nevsk (likely founded by Novgorod merchants for convenience of their trade) depends on good relations with Denmark AND Sweden. So Archangelsk will still remain kinda sorta used as a backup port in case of any conflcts in the Baltics.
 
If no Treaty of Stolbovo happens and Russia keeps Ingria, then Novgorod aglomeration would likely develop a port in place of OTL St. Petersburg roughly where Nien was located, on the banks of Okhta river (a settlement named Nevskoye Ustye apparently was there, which may be later prettified to Ust-Nevsk); Narva and this town would likely serve the Baltic trade well.
Archangelsk on the other hand remains underdeveloped backwater instead of sole major port of Russia for a century.


Sounds reasonable but, IIRC, Ivan started building some port facilities and even wharfs at Narva. OTOH, Novgorod owned the sea coast in Ingria for centuries and never built any port or even conducted a naval trade: all goods had been carried by the Hanseatic merchants. Situation did not change (or changed to the worse) during the Rurikides’ reigns.

BTW, I was not talking about keeping the whole Ingrid, just a piece of coast close to Narva. :)
 
I'm thinking building the port in the reign of Boris Godunov, who is a Navy-conscious ruler.

And I can't imagine an agreement where Russia keeps Narva but loses the Ingrian swamps to Sweden, it would be strategic nonsence.
 
OTOH, Novgorod owned the sea coast in Ingria for centuries and never built any port or even conducted a naval trade: all goods had been carried by the Hanseatic merchants. Situation did not change (or changed to the worse) during the Rurikides’ reigns.

They did conduct naval trade.

In the historiography of Baltic trade it is argued that Russian merchants became actively involved in trade in the 12th century. They undertook independent journeys to Gotland and the Baltic’s southern coast, probably above all in the second half of the century:81 An account of Novgorod merchants returning from Gotland and Denmark can be found in the Novgorod Chronicle for the year 1130.82
Novgorod merchants were arrested or had their goods confiscated in Denmark in 1134.83 In 1157, when the Danish heir to the throne, Svend Grathe (d. 1157), conquered Schleswig, he also took possession of the Russian ships and goods docked in the harbour.84
In 1204 King Valdemar II of Denmark confirmed Lübeck’s privileges, among which was the privilege of 1188 from Emperor Frederick I granting “the Russians, Goths, Normans, and other eastern peoples” the freedom to visit Lübeck.85 In the 1220s Russians and Livs are mentioned among the other eastern nations in Lübeck with the right to trade in the city without paying customs.86 In the second half of the 12th century Russian merchants trading in the Baltic built several churches in Novgorod.87
It can be concluded from the extensive building work there that the third quarter of the 12th century was a thriving period for Novgorod’s foreign trade. It has been argued that one of the causes of this growth was these legal regulations on trade in the Baltic.88 The Russians also had ‘merchants’ churches’ abroad, two presumed to be on Gotland (Novgorod and Polotsk or Smolensk churches?) and one in Sigtuna.89
During the course of the 13th century the independent voyages made by Russians westwards from Gotland became less frequent or even stopped altogether. This decline is also reflected in the treaties with Novgorod agreed during the second half of the 13th century in which, in contrast to earlier periods, only the journeys of Russian merchants as far as Gotland are mentioned. The reasons for this change must be attributed to a structural shift in Baltic trade. In the first place, the cog type of ship had a greater holding capacity than the Novgorod ships thanks to its broad hull and was also more seaworthy. Moreover, the harbour towns that had emerged in Livonia in the meantime were ideal for reloading goods onto smaller ships, carts, and sledges, which could then be transported inland by river or via land routes
- Livonia, Rus’ and the Baltic Crusades in the Thirteenth Century
 
On the other hand, trade through Narva and Ust-Nevsk (likely founded by Novgorod merchants for convenience of their trade) depends on good relations with Denmark AND Sweden. So Archangelsk will still remain kinda sorta used as a backup port in case of any conflcts in the Baltics.
The problem with the Novgorodian trade was that first Ivan III severely cut their contacts with Hansa and then did a massive cleansing/resettlement of the leading families and replaced them with the loyalists from Moscow. Then Ivan IV did a thorough destruction of whatever was left. Fortunately, none of them accomplished a 100% destruction but nonetheless the damage was severe. In OTL trade relations with Sweden had been regulated by the peace treaties but the Russian merchants were not going beyond Narva.

Archangelsk was important not just as a backup port but it had its own merits: this was the only region where the Russians had a seagoing tradition and fleet and the Northern seas had been producing a number of valuable trade items.
 
They did conduct naval trade.

Well, you are welcomed to name the Novgorodian ports from which the Russian merchants had been sailing with any degree of a regularity. XI and XII centuries had been ancient history by the time of Ivan IV and quite a few things changed including the perceptions.

Existing agreements with Hansa, AFAIK, stipulated that the Hanseatic merchants had been loading their goods on a sea coast after which these goods had been transported by the Novgorodian boats up the river and lake to be stored in warehouses of the Hanseatic quarter. The same, in a reverse order, applied to the Novgorodian exports. Were there similar agreements and settlements for the alleged Novgorodian sea travelers? Did anybody prevent them from building the ships similar to the Hanseatic? Settlers of the North did have reasonably sizable ships of their own.
 
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I'm thinking building the port in the reign of Boris Godunov, who is a Navy-conscious ruler.

And I can't imagine an agreement where Russia keeps Narva but loses the Ingrian swamps to Sweden, it would be strategic nonsence.

Ivan started doing this at Narva so if it is still in the Russian hands, there is no pressing need of building one more nearby and I expect that you know more than one argument about inconvenience of building a major port in the mouth of Neva. :)

I somewhat agree about the Ingrian swamps but if GA is not as successful as in OTL it could be better something than nothing scenario and, anyway, as I understand, the swamps were mostly on the site chosen by Peter (Louis XIV also chose swampy area for his residence so this is probably goes with a notion of greatness). While the area was not densely populated, there were numerous settlements and even manors before Peter came there.

Anyway, the main questions were about the long term consequences both local and regional.
 
AH: Ivan IV pursued limited goals in the Livonian War concentrating exclusively on taking and keeping Narva as a port on the Baltic coast and it never was lost (in OTL it fall into the Swedish hands in 1581).

Existence of the Baltic port conveniently located to channel trade from Novgorod and Pskov should, in theory, remove the reason for Russian participation in the GNW: in OTL, while in the Swedish hands, it was the main outlet for the Russian trade and it was Peter’s 1st goal.

So would its possession be enough to keep Russia at peace with Sweden (assuming that Peter I is driven by a pragmatism and not abstract ideas)?

Would it grow into something much greater than in OTL where it was dwarfed by St Petersburg, Riga and Tallin?
View attachment 453283

Would it be adequate for the growing trade? After all, it was convenient for the traffic going through Pskov (map above) and not too much so for Novgorod (map below); of course, not prohibitively inconvenient because it did happen.

View attachment 453285

What would be consequences (for all OTL participants) of Russia not being engaged in a prolonged war with Sweden?

What kind of POD are we talking about here? Is the Livonian War ending sooner and on better terms, does Russia domestic situation go as in OTL or is that improved? Is there a time of Troubles with resulting foreign invasions I feel you cannot answer this question, without answering those questions.

Keeping Narva is one thing, will it be of use is another. There are many ways for the Russia of Ivan the Terrible to go wrong, and at least make the acquisition of Narva seem small in the short term. Is the Livonian War prolonged that the Oprichnina is created and let loose to extort and wreak havoc through murder and extortion across Russia, and does Novgorod suffer? What about succession Does Ivan still only leave one son to succeed him or can he theoretically have three, and can the Time of Troubles be avoided? What about the possibility of a Swedish match for Ivan Ivanovich, does that still fall through as in OTL?

I only ask because I worked with an alternate limited Livonian War, that is more successful to at least prevent some of its nastier knock-on effects on Ivan's later reign like the Oprichnina, and Sack of Novgorod, along with a Butterfly or two to keep Eric XVI of Sweden both sane and his daughter's marriage to Ivan Ivanovich working out, leaving Sweden out of the War. What it might mean for the participants is tricky, Sigismund of Poland and Lithuania might be short a potential ally in Sweden. Depending on what happens in both Sweden and Russia they could have closer ties, but again a lot of this depends on what you are choosing as a POD or several around the Livonian War.
 
What kind of POD are we talking about here? Is the Livonian War ending sooner and on better terms, does Russia domestic situation go as in OTL or is that improved? Is there a time of Troubles with resulting foreign invasions I feel you cannot answer this question, without answering those questions.

Keeping Narva is one thing, will it be of use is another. There are many ways for the Russia of Ivan the Terrible to go wrong, and at least make the acquisition of Narva seem small in the short term. Is the Livonian War prolonged that the Oprichnina is created and let loose to extort and wreak havoc through murder and extortion across Russia, and does Novgorod suffer? What about succession Does Ivan still only leave one son to succeed him or can he theoretically have three, and can the Time of Troubles be avoided? What about the possibility of a Swedish match for Ivan Ivanovich, does that still fall through as in OTL?

I only ask because I worked with an alternate limited Livonian War, that is more successful to at least prevent some of its nastier knock-on effects on Ivan's later reign like the Oprichnina, and Sack of Novgorod, along with a Butterfly or two to keep Eric XVI of Sweden both sane and his daughter's marriage to Ivan Ivanovich working out, leaving Sweden out of the War. What it might mean for the participants is tricky, Sigismund of Poland and Lithuania might be short a potential ally in Sweden. Depending on what happens in both Sweden and Russia they could have closer ties, but again a lot of this depends on what you are choosing as a POD or several around the Livonian War.

Reasonable questions. The idea was that Ivan’s goals in the Livonian War are limited to getting a single port, which probably allows to avoid conflict with Lithuania and Sweden. In OTL Ivan allegedly started a shipbuilding program in Narva so this remains and Tsardom ends up with a small merchant fleet and some navy (which is not big enough to be a serious competitor to anybody).

Limited scope of the war allows to avoid the disasters of a real one but not the internal “self-inflicted wounds” like oprichnina. We are not going to make Ivan a nice guy or Fedor a great ruler or to remove the natural disasters whic triggered ToT.
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ToT happens on a schedule but by that time Russian naval trade is well established and even if during the ToT Narva falls into the Swedish hands, it is returned, as Novgorod.

The reason for this POD is following: presumably (at least this is a mainstream view) by the mid-/late XVII Russia was falling behind the Western Europe due to an absence of a “window” (well, usually people are using the doors to get somewhere but le it be; anyway, AFAIK the term was coined by a visiting foreigner during the reign of Anne). So here is the window and how the things are going to proceed in the terms of a general development?

There are additional questions like (in)sufficiency of that window for avoiding the GNW and potential impact of it not happening (or happening without Russia) on Russia, the whole region and potentially Western Europe.
 
In OTL Ivan allegedly started a shipbuilding program in Narva so this remains and Tsardom ends up with a small merchant fleet and some navy (which is not big enough to be a serious competitor to anybody).

Limited scope of the war allows to avoid the disasters of a real one but not the internal “self-inflicted wounds” like oprichnina. We are not going to make Ivan a nice guy or Fedor a great ruler or to remove the natural disasters whic triggered ToT.

Color me skeptical about that. My understanding of Ivan the Terrible is that a lot of his later reign was strained by the Livonian War which lasted 25 years, which saw things like the Oprichnina, and Sack of Novgorod happen. I would say you cannot have a shorter Livonian War that somehow magically sees Ivan the Terribles reign play out the exact same way. While I would argue that Ivan certainly had a high opinion of himself, I feel that him killing his son, or even just being left with Feodor are not done deals that are somehow not impacted by the Livonian War.

The reason for this POD is following: presumably (at least this is a mainstream view) by the mid-/late XVII Russia was falling behind the Western Europe due to an absence of a “window” (well, usually people are using the doors to get somewhere but le it be; anyway, AFAIK the term was coined by a visiting foreigner during the reign of Anne). So here is the window and how the things are going to proceed in the terms of a general development?

There are additional questions like (in)sufficiency of that window for avoiding the GNW and potential impact of it not happening (or happening without Russia) on Russia, the whole region and potentially Western Europe.

As for this part, I would say Russia suffered less from "Backwardness" from and more political disruption from the later parts of Ivan the Terrible's reign with The Oprichnina, Time of Troubles, and the invasions and political disputes that came along with it, as well as hostile neighbors. Having a window to west means nothing if the rest of the house is on fire, and believe a shorter victorious Livonian War can potentially remove all those problems that plagued Russia.

However, more to the point, keeping Narva and how successful it would be, depends on what happens internally as well. If Novgorod is still devastated by Ivan the Terrible then perhaps could be become an important city to take Novgorod's place. However, if Novgorod is not devastated Narva could serve by being a port of entry near such an important city, but not fully eclipsing the city.
 
Color me skeptical about that. My understanding of Ivan the Terrible is that a lot of his later reign was strained by the Livonian War which lasted 25 years, which saw things like the Oprichnina, and Sack of Novgorod happen. I would say you cannot have a shorter Livonian War that somehow magically sees Ivan the Terribles reign play out the exact same way. While I would argue that Ivan certainly had a high opinion of himself, I feel that him killing his son, or even just being left with Feodor are not done deals that are somehow not impacted by the Livonian War.

An idea that Ivan was a nice and meek person and that only a prolonged war turned him into a monster is, of course, quite interesting but, unfortunately, it belongs to the same category as him being forced to cruelty by the evil plotting boyars (see Eisenstein's movie). Ivan started killing people for fun or revenge when he still was a teenager, well before the Livonian War. Conquest of Kazan was not gently done either, and the list is going on. Shorter Livonian war would change the details but not a principle.

As far as Oprichnina is involved, it was explained long ago that formally creating a separate "state within state" was the only way for him to bypass the restrictions of the existing system: he could execute whoever he wanted but he could not make an administrative or military appointment that would violate existing system of "mestnichestvo". However, within this new "state" the rules did not apply and he could make military appointments at will (oprichnina, among other things, was an army). Implementing this idea as OTL monstrosity was a byproduct of his personality.

The real reasons behind Sack of Novgorod are unknown and there was more than one theory on the subject out of which the evil plot of the Novgorodian elite with a purpose to switch to Lithuuania is only one. Not too convincing one, to be sure, taking into an account that traditional Novgorodian aristocracy mostly was not there after the wars with Ivan III which ended up with "repopulating" the area with the loyalists from Moscow. Even if one assumes that there were few high-placed turncoats in Novgorod itself, this can't explain genocide conducted in the whole region.

The whole story about murder of Ivan Jr. seems to be put to doubt recently but, while by changing something we can't guarantee that the rest will be exactly the same, there is no reason to insist that these events would not happen. The same goes for your conclusion that everything, including an alleged murder of his elder son, did happen exclusively due to the Livonian War.

As for this part, I would say Russia suffered less from "Backwardness" from and more political disruption from the later parts of Ivan the Terrible's reign with The Oprichnina, Time of Troubles, and the invasions and political disputes that came along with it, as well as hostile neighbors.

Let's start from the beginning. Russia was backward. Ivan III, grandfather of Ivan IV, had to invite the Italian architects to build the big cathedrals because Russians at that time simply did not know how to do anything of the kind (so-called "st. Basil Cathedral" built by Ivan IV has exotic exterior but there are no big spaces inside). The same goes for the fortifications of the Kremlin. Ivan IV knew that Russian military system is lagging behind the West and his initial military reforms involved both copying and direct hiring. Venetian ambassador was reporting in 1557 that Russian troops included "20,000 mounted shooters Saxon style and 30,000 infantry Swiss style" (while both the numbers and references look suspicious there is no reason to assume that they are a complete fantasy). Report by another visiting Italian says "... he also uses the foreign soldiers, mostly German infantrymen." Presumably, during the Livonian war Ivan had up to 7,000 Germans in his army and there are explicit references to the foreign troops left as garrison of Moscow in 1578 - 80. Russian army was definitely lagging behind in the area of a siegecraft, its artillery, while numerous, was not organized to be useful in the field battles, etc.

What's worth noticing is that in OTL Livonian War Ivan seemingly made a stress upon the "Asiatic" (well, Tatars were, of course, Europeans) style of a warfare at the expense of further development of the "Western" style troops. Streltsy never were developed up to the contemporary Western infantry standards (IMO, by their tactics they had been closer to the Janissary in the terms of almost exclusively relying upon firepower) and, whatever were the initial attempts in the area of a cavalry, it seems that the Tatar contingents and the traditional feudal militia had been prevailing. While there were definitely some foreigners serving in Oprichnina, it does not look like its military organization was advanced (all the way to the contemporary descriptions implying that they were armed with the bows).

Of course, events as disastrous as ToT were huge disruptive factor but "hostile neighbors", including successful Polish intervention during the ToT, became a serious issue due to the Russian military backwardness. Even few decades after the ToT, with a considerable work already done on modernization of the Russian army (including massive hiring of the foreigners), Smolensk War had been lost because of that weakness.

Then, of course, goes an issue of a general economic development in which Tsardom was clearly behind the West in the terms of manufacturing the goods and even the trade perceptions. In OTL the government (and Orthodox Church) were severely travels abroad as dangerous for the soul so how isolationism could not result in a backwardness?

Having a window to west means nothing if the rest of the house is on fire, and believe a shorter victorious Livonian War can potentially remove all those problems that plagued Russia.

That's the whole point! The argument about absence of the "window" as the main factor had been repeatedly used by the historians, both Russian and foreign, for almost 3 centuries. Of course, the part about "house on fire" is neither here nor there because Russia was noticeably lagging behind the West at least couple generations prior to Ivan IV and kept lagging for at least a century after that "fire" was extinguished (if, rather optimistically, we assume that this ceased to be the case during the reign of Peter I).

But would the earlier functioning outlet produce a noticeable change in the situation?

However, more to the point, keeping Narva and how successful it would be, depends on what happens internally as well. If Novgorod is still devastated by Ivan the Terrible then perhaps could be become an important city to take Novgorod's place. However, if Novgorod is not devastated Narva could serve by being a port of entry near such an important city, but not fully eclipsing the city.

By the time of Ivan IV Novgorod lost most of its trading clout thanks to the efforts of Ivan's grandfather who mostly destroyed its merchant class and limited contacts with the Hanseatic League. Ivan IV continued work in that direction but did not completely kill importance of the city due to the obvious geographic reasons: almost inevitably it was on a traditional route to the Baltic coast. What Novgorod was in OTL after the dust settled, was a transit city through which the goods were coming to and from Narva, a Swedish port officially designated as a major outlet for the Russian trade. If Narva remains Russian all the time then, one way or another, Novgorod would remain important in a capacity close to one of OTL.

However, the important question is would this scenario be enough for Russia in a long term? The main problem with Narva as a port is that it was very convenient for the trade via Pskov (which was relatively peripheral city) but not too much so for Novgorod. While in OTL Peter started GNW with an attack on Narva, soon enough he switched stress to the North: route Ladoga Lake - Neva River - Gulf of Finland which was better oriented toward the Central Russia (and was a part of the old Novgorodian trade route). @Valena argued that a new outlet in Neva mouth would be almost inevitable for a growing trade volume.
 
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