Italy siding with the Allies in WW2?

How would have had to happen for Italy in 1939/1940 to have sided with the allies instead of with Germany? What effect might this have had on the war?
 
Hmmmm. For starters, they would need to offer something to Italy. Perhaps Tunisia or Malta or Cyprus would do. On the other hand could they protect Italy from Germans? I do not think so. Would Allies be willing to offer anything to Italy? I do not think so. Perhaps if in 1936 Britain turned blind eye on Abyssinia then it might lead to Italian neutrality and eventually peace, but only if Germany is effectively stopped in France. If France falls as in OTL, nothing is going to keep Italy out of war.
 
For starters, it'd certainly screw with many of the Germans plans. As incompetent as the Italian military was in real life, the Alps are harsh terrain. What the forces the Germans would spare not having to launch an Afrika Korps or Mussolini's Greek ventures will all be tied up trying to launch assaults on Northern Italy, probably more forces actually. Plus it would divert forces from the French front and Fall Gelb in general, possibly averting the miraculous German luck-spree there.

It's a very plausible scenario actually, if the POD goes back to 1936, and Mussolini averts himself from falling into Hitler's sphere of influence. There's a good timeline going on right now, Giovinezza, that explores this scenario well.

Also post-war, fascism will receive a huge legitimacy boost, what with the Second World War not being just Democracy (Plus one Communist state) versus Authoritarianism. Depending on the specific circumstances, Italy could use their position as one of the 'good guys' to try and get irredentist land in Yugoslavia and Greece before or after the conflict starts.
 

Esopo

Banned
mussolini couldnt attack germany in 1939. Nor siding with the democracies after 20 years of dissing them.
 
IIRC Britain and France kept offering Italy all sorts of concessions of colonial possessions such as Tunisia and Djibouti right up until Mussolini declared war. Perhaps if the Battle of France is a stalemate then Benny may decide to sit and wait until someone gained the upper hand.

Then again, the OTL Italian performance was so lamentable that you have to askif they would have been a burden on the Allies. :( Italian neutrality would probably have been best as it would have meant no Med/North Africa theatre freeing up thousands of troops, weapons and aircraft either for the Balkans or the Far East.
 

Where is this timeline?

Also, it defintively depends on what events happen leading to...actually, come to think of it, anything that causes Italy to not be in Germany's sphere means that Italy retains its own, which also leads me to recognize that some things might not even happen (Didn't Italy after all, initially protest the idea of Anschulluss?)
 
IIRC Britain and France kept offering Italy all sorts of concessions of colonial possessions such as Tunisia and Djibouti right up until Mussolini declared war. Perhaps if the Battle of France is a stalemate then Benny may decide to sit and wait until someone gained the upper hand.

Then again, the OTL Italian performance was so lamentable that you have to askif they would have been a burden on the Allies. :( Italian neutrality would probably have been best as it would have meant no Med/North Africa theatre freeing up thousands of troops, weapons and aircraft either for the Balkans or the Far East.

Yeah but Italian neutrality also means potential trouble for the Soviets. No troops in africa means the germans could theoretically launch everything they have available against them in Barbarossa (unless Hitler feels paranoid enough to leave enough troops on his border with Italy.)
 
Where is this timeline?

Also, it defintively depends on what events happen leading to...actually, come to think of it, anything that causes Italy to not be in Germany's sphere means that Italy retains its own, which also leads me to recognize that some things might not even happen (Didn't Italy after all, initially protest the idea of Anschulluss?)
Here you go.

That is exactly what happened. Italy, as stated in this thread already, was offered large tracts of land in Egypt, though I've never heard of the offering of Tunisia or Malta to Italy. If anyone had any sources on those, that'd be great to read over.
 
Here you go.

That is exactly what happened. Italy, as stated in this thread already, was offered large tracts of land in Egypt, though I've never heard of the offering of Tunisia or Malta to Italy. If anyone had any sources on those, that'd be great to read over.

thanks

Wait, Italy was offered land in egypt, and the possibility of Malta, tunisa, or cyprus....and they still sided with Germany :eek:
 
thanks

Wait, Italy was offered land in egypt, and the possibility of Malta, tunisa, or cyprus....and they still sided with Germany :eek:
Like I said, they were offered land in Egypt (How much of it I'm unsure of, but not Suez at least), those other points though I've heard people claim, yet I've never heard of these offers myself besides that. With Hitler, Mussolini thought of expanding his own power-base from beyond what the Allies would give, creating a slew of Italian satellites in the Balkans. Post-1936 also involved a lot of stare downs between the Italians and the Allies, driving Mussolini further into Hitler's grasp.

It is funny, seeing as Mussolini was the only leader to truly condemn the Anschluss of Austria. I believe A Greater Britain also showed a more competent Mussolini that, influenced by Prime Minister Mosley, led to WWII a few years earlier over the Anschluss. Another good timeline.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
How would have had to happen for Italy in 1939/1940 to have sided with the allies instead of with Germany? What effect might this have had on the war?

Not really. The UK cheated Italy in WW1, so as a first likely step, they need to undo the wrong. Just not undo to what someone now would say is fair, but in the minds of the Italians who had been angry on this subject for 20 years. Italy was promised the Adriatic coast and a share of Germany's colonies. They got a little of the coast, and no colonies. The UK would literally need to keep giving stuff to the Italians until the wounded Italian pride says, "We were treated fairly in WW1."

When you screw over an ally in a public manner and humiliate the leadership of the country, it is hard to get a second chances. This is sort of like saying what would the USA have to give Iran to get Iran to support the USA in the middle east. It would be a lot, and really nearing ASB.

The latest POD i can see is the ToV. Italy would be ok with the original terms, which would be the Adriatic and say German East Africa. Or maybe all the German colonies in Africa in exchange for less in the Adriatic.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
thanks

Wait, Italy was offered land in egypt, and the possibility of Malta, tunisa, or cyprus....and they still sided with Germany :eek:

After being scammed out of something very valuable, do you know anyone who negotiated with the scammer a second time? Before the UK can even begin to discuss new concessions, they have to make the last treaty whole. So they would need to give all these things to Italy, before Hitler looked strong, and without ANY conditions. Then, Italy might accept, and the UK might be able to negotiate a second set of concessions for an alliance. Maybe Algeria, Morocco, Suez, and Trans-Jordan.

Any terms that makes Italy happy will literally humiliate the UK, in a Public manner. It is just not the land, it is the humiliate of a proud people. Imagine something that the UK would never, never agree to, and then imagine Italy asking for 10 of these items.

Maybe give crown jewels to Italy. Or the King public apologizing to Italy, and permanently banning anyone in the British cabinet during WW1 from ever serving in government again. Maybe given Italy the 5 newest capital ships in the British Navy. Maybe Britain paying 10 billion in war reparations. Just absolutely ridiculous demands. It is a hundred times easier to maintain good relations than to fix the relations after a PUBLIC humiliation.
 
The Allies have much more to lose if they have Italy as their ally. They would be nothing more than a burden to the Allies given their OTL performance.
 
I thought this would happen if the British and French held the Germans back in May 1940. After a German unrestricted submarine warfare campaign gets the US in the war and the Germans are losing,Mussolini joins the Allied bandwagon.
 
Italy was offered a few colonial territories by the French, and I believe Corsica and Savoy, if Italy remained neutral, which I kind of explore in my TL (Link in signature). If Mussolini sided with the Allies in 1940 without any previous POD, I doubt the French would surrender and the British Expeditionary Force would be able to retreat to Italy with any remaining French forces.
 
Humm if the Laval compromise on Ethiopia is applied and so there is no embargo and consequent approchment with Germany there is still a strong possibility that Benny will stay on the allies side, even more if the anshluss situation is handled in a manner to irritate the italians.
The only thing is that any concession from the GB/France must be an anticipated payment, as Mussolini it aware if he cheated after a war again he can be outsted
Per colpa di qualcuno non si fa credito a nessuno - For the fault of somebody we don't make credit to anybody
What he can obtain is:
- French somalilland or at least the naval base right
- some border adjustment on the Egypt/libya border, Ciad/Libya border and on east africa
- cultural and financial guarantee on the italian minority on Tunisia and Malta
- Free hand on yugoslavia.
Military, well the alps are a very rough terrain and the tank are basically useless there and so Germany must divert lot of troops to at least keep the border safe, giving some more chance to the French to repeal the Nazi.
And having the italian at their side can make UK/French more bold and begin some offensive operation in the time when the bulk of the German armed forces are occupied on Poland basically changing the face of the war
 
Top