Eurofed
Banned
It would be better for the Turks and everyone else in Anatolia since the starvation, massacres, and forbidden forum topics wouldn't happen.
It would be much better for the Armenians, indeed.
It would be better for the Turks and everyone else in Anatolia since the starvation, massacres, and forbidden forum topics wouldn't happen.
I wouldn't put France and Austria on the same level. True, Italy had some disputes with France such as the "economic war" at the turn of the century and the colonization of Tunisia, but France wasn't a "traditional enemy" of Italy. There wouldn't even be a kingdom of Italy without the french support.
Italy never actually fought France, but during WW2, not even when Rome could not be added to the kingdom thanks to Napoleon's protection. Italy didn't even join Prussia during the 1870 war, when doing so could have delivered to the italians both Rome and Savoy (which is, by the way, a good POD to have an Italy firmly entrenched in Germany'side during WW1, in my opinion).
So I find equiparating France and Austria a bit extreme.
As for the ottomans, it's true that both sides had a lot to offer, with the central powers in slight advantage, but IIRC until the Goeben arrival, the empire seemed leaning toward neutrality, rather than belligerance. Peace would benefit the entente, but especially the turks.
While France was instrumental in the formation of the united Italian state, they followed that up with belligerence and opposition. The two biggies for Italy were the economic war and Tunisia. France made a dedicated effort in the late 19th and early 20th centuries towards crushing the burgeoning Italian economy, to prevent them becoming a rival with dreams of retaking the rest of Savoy. Tunisia had a significant Italian population, but the Italian government was squeezed out by French interested that Italy was too weak to ignore. Italy was so fond of France that they signed a defensive alliance explicitly aimed at France - seems to me that this is a fairly sure sign they were unimpressed with the French.
The triple alliance was dictated more by the need to find a strong ally (germany) in a moment when the relations with France were sour. But if you read closely about the alliance, you'll note that Italy tried to carve up as much manouvring space as conceded by the letter of the alliance.
Nonetheless, the fact remains that even with that manouvring space, Italian leadership expected/felt bound to side with Germany in any European war, provided that a) they get some decent compensation for A-H gains in the Balkans or b) the war had been started by the Entente.
Unfortunately, it would be quite difficult to convince Austria to part from Trieste. The others italians claim (Trento, Gorizia etc...) weren't really crucial to the empire, while Trieste was the last good austrian port and window over mediterrean. It simply was too important economically and military for Austria to let her go.
Italy wanted to get its irredentist claims, sure, but its ruling class was eager to "stretch its wings" and definitely affirm Italy's status as a top-tier great power by cutting down either Austria or France and affirming Italian hegemony in the western Balkans, the Mediterranean, or both.
By the way, in the event of a central power, including Italy, victory, what do you think would be the Balkans asset? Serbia would be probably drawed into the empire' s sphere, but Italy had already interests in both Albania and Montenegro. Could the balkan division lead to even more strife between the two nations?
In fact, there were other options of basing that were just as good, but Trieste was the best for its strategic location.
Very likely. Montenegro and (Greater) Albania are almost sure to fall into the Italian sphere. This with a CP Bulgaria will effectively block Austria-Hungary into what it has, and a probable Serbian puppet. This is almost sure to cause some ammount of friction between Italy and Austria-Hungary. Maybe even between Italy and the Ottomans in the Med.
Im interested in what would be the fate of Greece here? Its almost impossibble for them to join the Entante and declare war to... well everyone within a couple of thousand kilometers, actually.
Anyway, I think that the best way to bring Italy on central powers side is changing the order of the declaration of war. If the entente go on the offensive, the italian goverment could not hide between the letter of the alliance and would have joined the CP.
By the way, in the event of a central power, including Italy, victory, what do you think would be the Balkans asset? Serbia would be probably drawed into the empire' s sphere, but Italy had already interests in both Albania and Montenegro. Could the balkan division lead to even more strife between the two nations?
Very likely. Montenegro and (Greater) Albania are almost sure to fall into the Italian sphere. This with a CP Bulgaria will effectively block Austria-Hungary into what it has, and a probable Serbian puppet. This is almost sure to cause some ammount of friction between Italy and Austria-Hungary.
Maybe even between Italy and the Ottomans in the Med.
Im interested in what would be the fate of Greece here? Its almost impossible for them to join the Entante and declare war to... well everyone within a couple of thousand kilometers, actually.
This would box Austria-Hungary in, but this could give additional impetus to the reformist movement through the removal of external threats and easy targets.
IIRC the Greek government split in WW1, with the King and his faction being opposed to any entry into the war, and the Prime Minister being in favour of it, which resulted in the Entente launching a coup and setting up an alternative government.
They were obligated by treaty to come to the defence of Serbia if it was attacked by Bulgaria,
so a swift victory by the Austrians, before the Bulgarians hop on board, should see them remaining out of it - though you'd have to wonder why the Bulgarians would then get involved at all.
You're not wrong. The Triple Alliance had one weak link. The Austrians and Italians couldn't stand eachother.The more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced the only way to get Italy in the war as a German ally is for Austria-Hungary to join the Entente.![]()
The more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced the only way to get Italy in the war as a German ally is for Austria-Hungary to join the Entente.![]()
Despite the usual claims of Britwankers that the invincible RN can win all the wars and defeat anyone quickly and effortlessly with blockades and coastal raids, Italian economy won't be nowhere as easy to strangle by British blockade as others seem to think (not really more than the other CPs, anyway). Because pretty much all the Italian economy that matters is concentrated north of Rome, where the railroad network is good and can keep the backbone of the war economy together. Italy is much more self-sufficient about foodstuff than the other CPs and German coal can fuel Italian industry. There is going to be some significant hardship, but it is nothing that the Italian WWI semi-dictatorial war government can't manage. Yeah, Sardinia is pratically lost for the duration of the war, but it's no big loss.
And the Entente has very few significant "bargaining chips" towards the Ottomans. They look like the weaker party in this lineup, Serbia and its entire army shall go down very quick, which means that Greece shall be a CP-friendly neutral, and the CP shall control the entire Balkans. In this scenario, Turkey has the opportunity to inflict a telling blow to its old arch-enemy Russia, and seize plenty of stuff in Caucaus and Persia. And if the Entente can offer Libya, the CPs can offer Egypt and Cyprus, plus stuff in Caucasus and Persia. Most likey, the Ottomans join the CPs soon, which means Britain now has all the Middle Eastern theaters to man, besides helping overstrenched and manpower-starved France.
That is wholly doable (frankly, the decision to pick Austria rather than Italy as the default main ally ranks among the most disastrous foreign policy decisions of the Kaiserreich, only second to picking a useless naval pissing contest with Britain) but it requires a different, earlier PoD.
However, you are greately exaggerating the difficulties here. Italy genuinely admired and liked Germany as an ally, they only asked Berlin to wrangle some decent concessions from the useless Habsburg instead of spoiling them all the time. Italian demands were moderate.
The Ottomans could also use the opportunity after Bulgarian entry to inflict a crushing blow in western Thrace and Rumelia. and not face fighting the Russians in Armenia or the British in Arabia / Palestine... but the Bulgarians in the Balkans. The Ottomans can hardly do worse....and of course the Entente does not have to force the straits to get to Russia in this case.
moderate IS DEPENDENT ON YOUR POINT OF VIEW.....in the mind of the Italians of course.... but not the Hapsburgs who had controlled the areas in question for CENTURIES.
moderate IS DEPENDENT ON YOUR POINT OF VIEW.....in the mind of the Italians of course.... but not the Hapsburgs who had controlled the areas in question for CENTURIES