Italy bi passed, Dragoon in1943

Kongzilla

Banned
Well I think by that point, the WAllies didn't have enough landing craft or total air superiority so it's pretty messy. But the Heer hasn't been completely annihilated yet.
 
"Dragoon" might have been overreaching, but securing Sardinia & Corsica was certainly doable. Holding those creates all sorts of headaches for the Axis and enables the proposed Anvil Operation to be launched in the spring of 1944 as originally planned. Sardinia/Corsica are also good for airbases to attack souther France, Northern Italy, and as far east as Rumania. In OTL the Allies had six bomber wings based in Corsica just three months after the initial landings there.

Not having a army group in Central Italy, and not sustaining the South Italian population with food and coal frees up a lot of Allied cargo ships. On the down side the German army group in Italy is not pinned down and constitutes a defacto reserve. Pros & Cons both ways.
 
Depends on how Mussolini and Hitler react. Would the nazis be willing to back an Italian counter offensive at this stage of the game? If not where does that leave Mussolini?
 
"Dragoon" might have been overreaching, but securing Sardinia & Corsica was certainly doable. Holding those creates all sorts of headaches for the Axis and enables the proposed Anvil Operation to be launched in the spring of 1944 as originally planned. Sardinia/Corsica are also good for airbases to attack souther France, Northern Italy, and as far east as Rumania. In OTL the Allies had six bomber wings based in Corsica just three months after the initial landings there.

Not having a army group in Central Italy, and not sustaining the South Italian population with food and coal frees up a lot of Allied cargo ships. On the down side the German army group in Italy is not pinned down and constitutes a defacto reserve. Pros & Cons both ways.

"Securing Sardinia & Corsica" was in fact done in 1943. After the Italian surrender to the Allies in September, Italian forces expelled the Germans from Sardinia that month, and Free French forces took back Corsica in early October.

Attempting Dragoon while Sicily and the whole of the Italian peninsula are still in Axis hands would be nearly impossible. Imagine trying to maintain supply links across the western Med while German and Italian planes (I can imagine a scenario where Mussolini could survive the loss of Sardinia like he couldn't the loss of Sicily) are harassing Allied shipping the whole way and German and Italian subs and Italian MAS torpedo boats doing sneak attacks...
 
Taking Sicily was done for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was within aircover of Africa, and the WAllies had gotten totally paranoid about venturing beyond air cover, for good reason.
Secondly, it allowed convoys to travel the med relatively safely, which cut transit time to and from India and southeast asia massively.
Thirdly, its big enough to be used as a staging area for an attack on italy. When people have proposed sardinia first before, its been pointed out that there isnt enough flat land available for air strips to gain air superiority.

Yes, if it could have worked, it would have enabled a landing north of Rome, say, avoiding much of the slog up Italy. It would have been tough to do Dragoon, though, if italy was still hostile.
 
bm79;7266260 Attempting Dragoon while Sicily and the whole of the Italian peninsula are still in Axis hands would be nearly impossible. Imagine trying to maintain supply links across the western Med while German and Italian planes .[/QUOTE said:
Does not require any imagination. Twice the Axis tried to oppose Allied airpower in the Med in 1943 & twice they were shot out of the sky. The Germans did win some spectacular tactical victories but both times they lost the campaign.

While Corsica is nicely positioned for Allied use Sardinia to the south is not so well located for Axis defense. It sits well to the east of Italy & Sicily, out of useful fighter range, & the west coast is at the limits of useful bomber range. Effective Axis. Even before the Allies control Sardinia Axis interdiction of the sea lanes from the Atlantic will be no more effective than their efforts to interdict those same sea lanes along the African littoral in 1943 of OTL.

With Sardinia/Corsica in allied hands the sea route from the Atlantic will be shielded from effective long range interdiction & out of range of things like Mas boats.
 
Not having a army group in Central Italy, and not sustaining the South Italian population with food and coal frees up a lot of Allied cargo ships.

Not capturing Sicily and opening the Mediterranean ties down a lot of Allied ships.

Taking Sicily brought down Mussolini, after which Italy surrendered and Sardinia, Corsica, and southern Italy all fell quickly to the Allies.

Southern Italy was the logical base for air operations against the Balkans, Hungary, Austria, and southern Germany.
 
Not capturing Sicily and opening the Mediterranean ties down a lot of Allied ships.

Taking Sicily brought down Mussolini, after which Italy surrendered and Sardinia, Corsica, and southern Italy all fell quickly to the Allies.

Southern Italy was the logical base for air operations against the Balkans, Hungary, Austria, and southern Germany.

What about Sicily and THEN Sardinia and Corsica?
 
When people have proposed sardinia first before, its been pointed out that there isnt enough flat land available for air strips to gain air superiority.

Italy had built a fair number of all weather & secondary airfields on Sardinia. At least once in 1942 they 'surged the aircraft there to approx 300 combat aircraft. The Allies could do better. They secured Corsica in late October & in January 1944 had six wings of bombers based there (500+ aircraft) plus a similar number of fighters and several groups of reconissance, maritime patrol, & transports scattered about both islands. The robust Brit & US logistics/construction capability dealt with the lack of 'flat'. Later for Op Dragoon well over 2000 aircraft supported from the two islands.
 
Carl Schwamberger said:
Not having a army group in Central Italy, and not sustaining the South Italian population with food and coal frees up a lot of Allied cargo ships.
That is an enormous benefit to the buildup for Neptune (&/or Anvil). Plus, no Italian ops don't tie up LCs, freeing them for other use. (Recall, Sicily saw more divisions afloat than Neptune.:eek:)
Carl Schwamberger said:
On the down side the German army group in Italy is not pinned down and constitutes a defacto reserve. Pros & Cons both ways.
Not necessarily. If Mussolini falls, if Italy changes sides (& IMO that's a credible option), Italy becomes hostile territory for Germans.

Beyond that, if the Allies carry out MTB &/or commando strike ops along Italy's entire coast, you'd be tying up very considerable numbers of Germans in garrisons & shore defenses, for the cost of very few Allied (& much less shipping than OTL.)
 
Italy had built a fair number of all weather & secondary airfields on Sardinia. At least once in 1942 they 'surged the aircraft there to approx 300 combat aircraft. The Allies could do better. They secured Corsica in late October & in January 1944 had six wings of bombers based there (500+ aircraft) plus a similar number of fighters and several groups of reconissance, maritime patrol, & transports scattered about both islands. The robust Brit & US logistics/construction capability dealt with the lack of 'flat'. Later for Op Dragoon well over 2000 aircraft supported from the two islands.
I did wonder about those claims. Thank you.
 
What about Sicily and THEN Sardinia and Corsica?

Sounds utterly logical to me. I think there are equally logical arguments for Sardinia first then Sicily. Either way you put air bases near the entire length of Italy, in range of the industrial north Italy & the Rumanian oil industry, and the potiential invasion sites all along the French/italian littoral, and you make the sea route to Suez more secure. Just depends on which sub-objective you want first.
 
Sounds utterly logical to me. I think there are equally logical arguments for Sardinia first then Sicily. Either way you put air bases near the entire length of Italy, in range of the industrial north Italy & the Rumanian oil industry, and the potiential invasion sites all along the French/italian littoral, and you make the sea route to Suez more secure. Just depends on which sub-objective you want first.

Just Sicily means you work your way up the boot, till you hit Brenner Pass.

Sardinia, well, lot more options from there.
 
What about Sicily and THEN Sardinia and Corsica?

I'll second that question. It even provides a good cover for the buildup, make as if to invade Italy, but then instead sail for Sardinia.

I'm sorry, but I figured that most people on this site, of all places, would have a least a basic knowledge of OTL events. We actually did take both Sardinia and Corsica in fall 43, as I stated in my message last night. By the time Naples fell, both of these islands were in allied hands.

In terms of the Italian campaign, possession of these didn't make the fight any easier, as the long hard march up the Boot in the year and a half after the fall of Corsica proves. As for avoiding Sicily and the Italian Boot all together, all that does is free up German troops to better oppose Anvil/Dragoon, and, as I positied last night, the probability that you'd have Italian troops still on the Axis side also based on the Riviera. OTL Dragoon was able to call on air support based not only out of Corsica and Sardinia, but by August 44 also from Tuscany as well.

Not to be overlooked, also, is the valuable knowledge gained by the Allies on amphibious assaults of well-defended enemy beaches, something that would prove invaluable later on and which would not be the case in a Sardinia/Corsica only strategy. OTL, Sardinia was basically self liberated because the Germans were expelled by local Italian garrisons who rallied to the Allied side after the Italian surrender, and Corsica was liberated a relatively small number of Free French forces. These were ripe friut waiting to be plucked, and since militaries usually only learn their lessons the hard way, D-Day and Dragoon might have turned into messier affairs without the experience gained in 43.
 
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