Italy, a Destiny Fulfilled

I was joking.;)
And that second bit is describing how many ideas posted in these threads are very similar to ideas I wrote in my TL, but seeing as I havnt postd those ideas yet their originality may be worn down by such comments. It was a joke as well.:D

Hey, u know what they say, great minds think alike! But yea ideas here are completely origional:)
 
Well I've scanned the thread and read the actual TL posts. The TL definitely has potential, but I have to agree: Help the Ottomans! Rome and Constantinople united in partnership again! Also, don't get the Olympics! Only the modern ones can make profits. If you want to bankrupt and Italian city, then the Olympics is your game. Instead I would suggest one of the World's Fairs--being a tech expo, Italy can both show off it's new ideas/stuff and take a look at other people's and maybe get some early investment on some key technologies?

I think helping the Ottomans+developing some tech will set you up nicely for the Maghreb oil booms (maybe develop the TL with an eye to that for a bit?)

What I'm not sure on is if the Pope for instance, will take kindly to the kind of exploitation and dehumanization industrial urbanization of that period caused. Might force Italy do some sort of social reforms early but I wouldn't know enough to be sure.

Well good luck!
 
Well I've scanned the thread and read the actual TL posts. The TL definitely has potential, but I have to agree: Help the Ottomans! Rome and Constantinople united in partnership again! Also, don't get the Olympics! Only the modern ones can make profits. If you want to bankrupt and Italian city, then the Olympics is your game. Instead I would suggest one of the World's Fairs--being a tech expo, Italy can both show off it's new ideas/stuff and take a look at other people's and maybe get some early investment on some key technologies?

I think helping the Ottomans+developing some tech will set you up nicely for the Maghreb oil booms (maybe develop the TL with an eye to that for a bit?)

What I'm not sure on is if the Pope for instance, will take kindly to the kind of exploitation and dehumanization industrial urbanization of that period caused. Might force Italy do some sort of social reforms early but I wouldn't know enough to be sure.

Well good luck!

Thank you! Really? Well, maybe the Olympics are too costly. A tech expo does sound good. Something like when Paris did it. Maybe a real monument can be built? Well, I've gotten PMs about it and this does it, I guess Italy and the Ottomans will have a good little relationship set up!
 
I would like to see a greater friendship with the US, In 1806 the US signed a treaty allowing US ship to base in Sicily, [Anti Berber Pirates]. Perhaps some thing can been done with this.

If you kill GB getting Cyprus, you can also keep France from Claiming Tunisia.

?When did GB get the French Shares in the Suez? Any way that Italy can get some of them? This would give them a voice in Egypt.

Italian aid During Lord Khishners expedition against the Waddists in ?1898? would help.
 
There are quite a few problems which need to be addressed in order to get a successful Italy (the more one successfully addresses the strongest Italy would become):
  • creation of a true unitary kingdom (rather than Piedmont - and piedmontese - ending up running most of the show. One of the major issues in the 1866 war was that 5 years after unification of the country the army and the navy were not really well integrated
  • finding enough money to pay for infrastructures, education, army and navy without bankrupting the state and without imposing impossible levels of taxation
  • a more humane (and certainly more intelligent) way of integrating the south of Italy. IOTL, the south was treated not much better than a conquered land and this resulted in a collapse of the southern economy and in endemic rebellions which were bloodily suppressed by the Piedmontese military. Not the best way to start a new nation
  • find a few statesmen with vision (at least one!). After Cavour's death, Italian prime ministers were quite lackluster and myopic. Maybe the POD is that Cavour survives.
  • Find a way to reach a sustainable accomodation with the Church, preferably at a negotiating table and not on bayonets' points
  • plan a strategy to make friends (reliable and useful friends) rather than planning things with a 24 hours horizon as they mostly did
  • curb the interference of the royal house in the political field. One cannot hope to go from the Albertine statutes to a British-style monarchy in one step, but the goal of the prime minister should be to slowly whittle down the royal prerogatives.
  • I said it before, but repeating it is not wasted: find more money to pay for infrastructures and education, the rest will get there on its own.







 
Are you going to make maps of this universe? I love maps.

I know:p unfortunatley, for some reason, i can not fully understand the map posting process and my maps are always much too large. I do have a map to post (Ill send a link if anyone would please post it:))


I would like to see a greater friendship with the US, In 1806 the US signed a treaty allowing US ship to base in Sicily, [Anti Berber Pirates]. Perhaps some thing can been done with this.

If you kill GB getting Cyprus, you can also keep France from Claiming Tunisia.

?When did GB get the French Shares in the Suez? Any way that Italy can get some of them? This would give them a voice in Egypt.

Italian aid During Lord Khishners expedition against the Waddists in ?1898? would help.

All very good questions, all of which require further research until i get back to you on that.


There are quite a few problems which need to be addressed in order to get a successful Italy (the more one successfully addresses the strongest Italy would become):
  • creation of a true unitary kingdom (rather than Piedmont - and piedmontese - ending up running most of the show. One of the major issues in the 1866 war was that 5 years after unification of the country the army and the navy were not really well integrated
  • finding enough money to pay for infrastructures, education, army and navy without bankrupting the state and without imposing impossible levels of taxation
  • a more humane (and certainly more intelligent) way of integrating the south of Italy. IOTL, the south was treated not much better than a conquered land and this resulted in a collapse of the southern economy and in endemic rebellions which were bloodily suppressed by the Piedmontese military. Not the best way to start a new nation
  • find a few statesmen with vision (at least one!). After Cavour's death, Italian prime ministers were quite lackluster and myopic. Maybe the POD is that Cavour survives.
  • Find a way to reach a sustainable accomodation with the Church, preferably at a negotiating table and not on bayonets' points
  • plan a strategy to make friends (reliable and useful friends) rather than planning things with a 24 hours horizon as they mostly did
  • curb the interference of the royal house in the political field. One cannot hope to go from the Albertine statutes to a British-style monarchy in one step, but the goal of the prime minister should be to slowly whittle down the royal prerogatives.
  • I said it before, but repeating it is not wasted: find more money to pay for infrastructures and education, the rest will get there on its own.



All great points, many of which i will definitely pursue, and some of them already done!:D
 
Note:I'm not sure if this was the size you considered much too big. It seems fine to me, but my screen is 1284x1024. If so, what you need to do is size the map smaller first and then label it. Otherwise the lettering becomes distorted. Also I took the liberty of re-labeling Iceland for easier reading.
Map of Europe 1863

euro1863.png
 
Note:I'm not sure if this was the size you considered much too big. It seems fine to me, but my screen is 1284x1024. If so, what you need to do is size the map smaller first and then label it. Otherwise the lettering becomes distorted. Also I took the liberty of re-labeling Iceland for easier reading.



Map of Europe 1863


Thank you very much MNPundit for this map, It's Perfect!!:D
 
Note:I'm not sure if this was the size you considered much too big. It seems fine to me, but my screen is 1284x1024. If so, what you need to do is size the map smaller first and then label it. Otherwise the lettering becomes distorted. Also I took the liberty of re-labeling Iceland for easier reading.



Map of Europe 1863

Thank you very much MNPundit for this map, It's Perfect!!:D


Yes, i agree, good map. Can't wait until its covered (or at least majorly dominated) by Italia! A New Roman age!
 
I said it before, but repeating it is not wasted: find more money to pay for infrastructures and education, the rest will get there on its own.

Well, of course this is the crux of the whole problem! Pity that is not easy to solve.

You can't cut the military spending since you have to liberate a good part of Italy yet.
You don't have a lot of natural resources to kickstart an industry.
You can't use debt to finance industry and infrastructures since you already have a large public debt.
It's hard to attract foreign capitals, since there are several others areas who are alredy attracting them (America for example).

OTL the destra storica (translation: historical right, called so to set her apart from the XX century right movements) achieved the elemination of the public debt and build many infrastructures (railroads, roads etc...) at the price of a exsose fiscalism and a brutal repression of several revolts, like those for the tax on the flour.

A way to solve this problems could be political: have France become more powerful than OTL, to thew point that Britain decides to "groom" Italy to become a possible junior ally in the scramble for Africa and a possible war in Europe.

As for seizing the Catholic Church possessions, Franciscus, you have to consider that Italy was still largely (99%) catholic. While anticlericalism was an oblique movement that reached several classes, it was too weak to support such a move. The reaction would have been probably a series of rebelions, especially in the South. It was already difficult enough OTL, with a king de facto excommunicated...
 
Hurrah! A map. Viva Italia! Molto, molto bene.

Glad you like it:p

Well, of course this is the crux of the whole problem! Pity that is not easy to solve.

You can't cut the military spending since you have to liberate a good part of Italy yet.
You don't have a lot of natural resources to kickstart an industry.
You can't use debt to finance industry and infrastructures since you already have a large public debt.
It's hard to attract foreign capitals, since there are several others areas who are alredy attracting them (America for example).

OTL the destra storica (translation: historical right, called so to set her apart from the XX century right movements) achieved the elemination of the public debt and build many infrastructures (railroads, roads etc...) at the price of a exsose fiscalism and a brutal repression of several revolts, like those for the tax on the flour.

A way to solve this problems could be political: have France become more powerful than OTL, to thew point that Britain decides to "groom" Italy to become a possible junior ally in the scramble for Africa and a possible war in Europe.

As for seizing the Catholic Church possessions, Franciscus, you have to consider that Italy was still largely (99%) catholic. While anticlericalism was an oblique movement that reached several classes, it was too weak to support such a move. The reaction would have been probably a series of rebelions, especially in the South. It was already difficult enough OTL, with a king de facto excommunicated...

Ughh, clearly there is no way to solve this matter internally. I fear we may have to rely on external forces and luck that can only be achieved in wanks to fix Italy's economy. unless anyone has any sure-fire ways to fix it (you can include external forces, and wank-luck, as long as it does not impede Italy's ability to grow). Cornelius, yours is good about the Britain part, however, a stronger France is not good for Italian claims on Nice, Savoy, and Corsica
 
While we are still debating the economic future of Italy in this TL, I do not want to progress in a way that turns off viewers, so this next part is a bit shorter, and still leaves discussion open to where we previously are. Until we establish a firmer understanding of where the economic future of Italy is headed and how it is going to get there, heres something to chew on.

Seconda Parte

July 16th, di Castagna continues his southern reform by moving goat farmers in Basilicata and Apulia and their herds up north into the more luscious and grassy northern Italian lands. This serves two purposes. First, di Castagna describes goats as an ecological nightmare to dry environments like south Italy. This is not something he wants, especially if is re-invigoration project in Basilicata is to work. Second, the vast lands that the goats used for feeding will be divided up and given to small bordering farms for them to become large and more bountiful. The small farms in the Italian south were problematic because they were just too small and didn’t have enough yields. With bigger plots of land, the agricultural output would be more uniform.

August 8th, di Castagna develops the tax deductible green system. The plan entails that any Italian company that funds the greenery and irrigation plan in the south will have the amount they contributed on the greenery deducted from taxes. The plan is especially liked by Northern businesses, as di Castagna had hoped.

August 12th, in what is supposed to be a di Castagna lead support rally in Florence, furious local business owners and civilians drill him on why he has done so much for the south and barely paid attention to the north. di Castagna fires back angrily with a description of Italy as a well dressed man, with a top hat and an expensive suit on, only this man’s expensive suit ends at his waist. His pants are tattered and the threads are loose and coming apart. He describes the top part of the man as northern Italy, rich and well clothed. The waist down is obviously the south of Italy, poor and falling apart. He tells the crowd that only when this man is fully well clothed, can the country truly move on, together. The speech moves thousands of people and people who just minutes ago where enraged where now chanting “Clothe Italy!” and other support ridden words. The speech is loved by the press and is spread to every newspaper in Italy the next day, along with countless caricatures of the di Castagnian description of Italy.

August 16th, after 4 days of hearing and reading about di Castagnas new new speech, effects are made clear. One clear effect was encouragement from the south and the profound effect it had on the southern army. Initially, southern Italians who were originally from the kingdom of the two Sicilies where angry towards the north, feeling like Italian unification was not unification at all, but more the north of the country having the south as its colony. With di Castagna and the motivation he gave about rebuilding the south, they felt as equals. This was a move di Castagna was trying to make since he assumed office. The effect on the military in the south was a bolster to its confidence. Originally, southern units did not want to work with their northern counterparts; however, seeing themselves more as equals now, this barrier was coming down, a large plus for the army.

September 17th, even though the newly enacted tax deductible green system has begun with sweeping success, the Prime minister is not having a good week. The Italian Parliament has again given di Castagna an earful on spending. They say Italy is not in a great economic state and cannot afford such radical reform. They are also angry at di Castagna’s Prussian economic investment idea not falling through (Prussia only gave minimal amounts of money to Italy, just enough to show a token of good faith. The government said Prussia was having its own economic needs that needed to be put on first priority). di Castagna counters with another economic plan, though he would not specify. The Parliament was in an uproar to the counter saying this would be the second leniency given to the Prime Minister. Non the less, feeling that the man was an unusually competent leader, they give him 2 months to make good on his promise. di Castagna leaves the building determined to do just that.



[Notes]
-Most of the economic plans in this part are not solely dependent on government money, but are by choice. Ex. the tax deductible green system is completely based on private funds. Hence, they are not as much stress on the economy of Italy as one would think.

-Ideas are completely original, with many based on proposals from the thread "Ideas on an Italy TL", set up by myself. If you see something you may have helped on, please, again, do not be afraid to acknowledge it!

-Separated armies was a real OTL problem. This problem being fixed is reason for an already stronger force.
comments, ideas, props, critiques, and suggestions on how to continue always loved :)
 
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Una parte eccellente!:D It truly is great Franciscus, I like the economic plans (I see the goat one from "Ideas on an Italy wank" TL). I'm not an ace on economic issues but they sound fine and feasible. Cant wait 'till parte tre!

Nice to see an Italo-wank. Italy never had it good, not since 476 A.D. anyway.

Agreed!
 
Oh, heres a thought: Italy sponsored revolts against the ottomans (later on, if your going to do this ottoman alliance), in support of Serbia, Greece, etc. This way, an Italian monarch/sympathetic/ puppet (my favorite) government being established in each respective country, leading to a massive sphere of influence/ taking them over!
 

The Sandman

Banned
Oh, heres a thought: Italy sponsored revolts against the ottomans (later on, if your going to do this ottoman alliance), in support of Serbia, Greece, etc. This way, an Italian monarch/sympathetic/ puppet (my favorite) government being established in each respective country, leading to a massive sphere of influence/ taking them over!

The Greeks are currently independent and scheduled to be one of Italy's targets (part of the reason for good relations with the Ottomans is so that the Ottomans don't consider the Italian conquest of Greece as a future threat to the Empire). The Italians have no reason to care about the Serbs, the Bulgarians, or any of the other Balkan peoples. The closest they might come is caring about Albania and some of northern Greece, in the sense that they want that land. But with enough money and other assistance to offer they could probably just buy that from the Ottomans too.

The whole point here is that the Italians make an alliance and then stick with it, rather than the backstabs and shortsightedness that characterized their OTL foreign policy.
 
Oh, heres a thought: Italy sponsored revolts against the ottomans (later on, if your going to do this ottoman alliance), in support of Serbia, Greece, etc. This way, an Italian monarch/sympathetic/ puppet (my favorite) government being established in each respective country, leading to a massive sphere of influence/ taking them over!

The Greeks are currently independent and scheduled to be one of Italy's targets (part of the reason for good relations with the Ottomans is so that the Ottomans don't consider the Italian conquest of Greece as a future threat to the Empire). The Italians have no reason to care about the Serbs, the Bulgarians, or any of the other Balkan peoples. The closest they might come is caring about Albania and some of northern Greece, in the sense that they want that land. But with enough money and other assistance to offer they could probably just buy that from the Ottomans too.

The whole point here is that the Italians make an alliance and then stick with it, rather than the backstabs and shortsightedness that characterized their OTL foreign policy.

i see what you're saying about the Balkans, but if you are aware with the TL Italy, an Empire Reborn, you will see how difficult that is (though i still may have that happen. BIG MAYBE). As for The Sandman's Idea about greece, Well, now i really see this plans with the ottomans is a good one!
 
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