Italy, a Destiny Fulfilled

You just dont get the whole concept of a TL, do you?
Plausability. REALISM. A plasible AH, not "our favourite nation is the best with our favourite leader doing all the right things...".
Anyway, nice to see someone else rather than Castagna as the PM.
It's a wank. It pretty much is "our favorite nation" with a leader "doing all the right things." We know nothing will ever seriously threaten Italy's greatness.

Have we seen Barletto before? He seemed to come out of nowhere but is described as the "right hand man."
 

Eurofed

Banned
It's a wank. It pretty much is "our favorite nation" with a leader "doing all the right things." We know nothing will ever seriously threaten Italy's greatness.

This doesn't mean that such a course must perforce be deemed unrealistic, however. As long as Italy and its elder BFF Germany keep having the same kind and degree of lucky breaks that America got IOTL, it is fine. :D
 
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It's a wank. It pretty much is "our favorite nation" with a leader "doing all the right things." We know nothing will ever seriously threaten Italy's greatness.

Have we seen Barletto before? He seemed to come out of nowhere but is described as the "right hand man."

Yes, we have! In part 1 and 4 I believe. He was made the minister of foreign affairs in 1865. The Profile bit made his appointment sound like a really friendly gesture on di Castagna's part, but the move was just political. di Castagna is a severely independent man and Barletto is... a crazed lunatic. Thats why I never wanted to give him a truly major part until now. If anything, i'm sure his being forced to stay in the sidelines has caused more jealousy issues to emerge.

This doesn't mean that such a course must perforce be deemed unrealistic, however. As long as Italy and its elder BFF Germany keep having the same kind and degree of lucky breaks that America got IOTL, it is fine. :D

Yes! Prussia (from what I know of it, hope I don't get backlash:p) and America both had a basically wank history, respectively. If Italy can catch the same degree of luck as the 2, while taking some equivalent hits (Theres an economic bubble forming, a great depression COULD happen), were all set.

Oh, and supermanboy, yes, there is going to be something to change the political landscape of Italy coming out of Barletto's Roman dreams mixed with di Castagna's economic prosperity :)
 
Just a bump to tell all the still loyal readers of IDF to refresh your memories on the TL! A new part will be up soon, with another soon after that (They're already done so I'm not bull shitting you!)
 
In the spirit of continuing on....

This doesn't mean that such a course must perforce be deemed unrealistic, however. As long as Italy and its elder BFF Germany keep having the same kind and degree of lucky breaks that America got IOTL, it is fine. :D
That doesn't mean it's not a wank. Realism and wanks are not mutually exclusive as you yourself point out.
 
Hey, welcome back! Why did you dissapear back then?

Thank you! Ugh, you know how it is. Work, family, and more work! Anyways, as I began to fall behind in posts and then there was some friction on the TL (which won't happen again as theres the future discussion thread!), I thought I'd keep my writing a summer affair, and give everyone (including myself) a fresh start with it. Now I can't wait to get back into it!

RE: The wank situation, Its been a while guys, lets drop it. Whatever this TL is, I hope everyone enjoys it no matter what type of TL it is
 
Parte Undici



March 2nd, 1869: The Paris Commune is finally put down. Silvio Barletto and Otto Von Bismarck quickly organize for a peace treaty to be drafted and signed at Frankfurt within the month.

March 17th, Antonio Romano, begins preaching across the region of Campania. The Roman Catholic priest has been preaching for 2 months in Rome and Lazio to moderate success. He began his public speech campaign against the Old Catholics after he was thrown out of his Parish by them for leading a Roman Catholic Christmas mass. His message is to bring Italy back into God's kingdom with the acceptance of the true Catholic faith. Some of his supporters say he is on a heroic quest to meet the wounded Prime Minister in Calabria and break his hardened heart into accepting Roman Catholicism again. However, his speeches also meets increasing opposition by Old Catholic and liberal-nationalist dissenters that condemn him as a dupe of the enemies of Italy.

March 25th, in Frankfurt, delegates from France, Italy, and Germany meet to discuss a peace treaty. The French delegation is quickly informed that they shall not be allowed to discuss the terms of the treaty, but they are just there to sign the document. France's army and navy have been completely destroyed in the war against the Italo-German alliance and large areas of France are under military occupation by alliance forces.

The Treaty states that Italy is to gain Nice, Savoy, Corsica, and the French Riviera up to Hyeres. Eastern Algeria from the border with Tunisia up to occupied Oran, and the recognition of France that Tunisia is within the Italian sphere of influence. Germany is to gain all the territory of the current French provinces of Alsace and Lorraine up to the Meuse, as well as Luxembourg. France recognizes the existence and territorial integrity of the Italian and German Empires.

-French citizens of areas annexed by Italy and Germany shall be given an year and half to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or to remain in the region and become Italian/German citizens.

-The French shares of the Suez Canal Company shall be seized and divided between Italy and Germany in equal parts.

-France shall pay a war indemnity of six billion Francs (3 to Italy and 3 to Germany), submitting to occupation by Italo-German troops until the amount is rendered in full. A billion francs are to be paid to the King of the Netherlands as indemnity for the German annexation of Luxembourg.

-France shall cede its holdings in Indochina (Cambodia and Cochin china) to be turned into a joint Italo-German protectorate.

The French delegation was appalled at the terms of the Treaty. It was clear, however, that just as Austria years ago, with the current condition of their country, France had no choice but to accept it. A last ditch effort was made by the French delegation to at least get an amendment. The French provisional government appealed to Barletto that Indochina remain in the hands of the French. Barletto agreed immediately, later telling Italian delegates that he is only concerned with Italian interests within Europe. Bismarck is not bothered overmuch with Barletto's allowance of France to keep Indochina, since at this time he has limited interest in Germany’s colonial expansion and wishes to avoid a clash with the imperial interests of Britain. The French agree to the amended treaty and sign it on the 27th.

April 1st, Barletto returns to cheering crowds in Rome. The nation of Italy is overjoyed at their gains and revels at its new empire. The crowd is overjoyed also that their beloved fearless leader Francesco di Castagna is making a great recovery. He gives a statement to a national paper from his estate in Calabria saying "Italy, after centuries at the feet of France and Austria, has finally risen up and beaten its great oppressors. This is the Italian age. This is the power of the Italian people".

Silvio Barletto celebrates victory in a different way... Barletto pronounces that this day is to be forever remembered in Italy as the day that the Italian underdog beats the tyrannical French. He goes on saying that with France and Austria "out of the way", Italy will focus on its eastward destiny. Barletto then lays claims to Albania and the Ionian Islands, to the evident surprise of every government official in sight. He continues his rant for another 40 minutes to a rather smaller crowd than when he began his speech.

April 2nd, As news of the previous day's speech surfaces in Britain and the Ottoman Empire, confidence in Silvio Barletto begins to wither away. PM Gladstone of the United Kingdom, Constantine, King of Greece, and Abdul Hamid II, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, all express great distaste for the recent blabber of the Italian PM. To their statements, Barletto responds that "Italian destiny is inevitable. It is a fact that the world will soon have to live with". Many Italian officials, including di Castagna, cringe upon hearing this. They fear that these reckless words will forever stain any Italian attempts at expansion.

April 3rd, Barletto's newest batch of comments have sparked high tension in Europe. in Britain, Prime Minister Gladstone gives a conference. In it, he states that recent talk of Italian territorial ambitions in the Balkans, combined with the culmination of recent years’ events, appears to be an intolerable disruption of the tranquility of Europe. He then continues that British economic and diplomatic relations with Barletto's Italy are on hold.

Simultaneously in Constantinople, Abdul Hamid II declares the Ottoman Empire is in full support of the British and suspends its economic and diplomatic relations with Barletto's Italy. He finishes by wishing di Castagna well and hoping he recovers quickly.

April 4th, Bismarck, alarmed by what has transpired within the past 48 hours and not wanting to find himself in a fight with Britain for the sake of Italian breakneck expansionism, exercises pressure on Italian elites to rein in Italy until the "true" Prime Minister’s health has recovered.

In Italy, high moods related to victory switch to panic as people and investors fear that foreign investment from Britain, Germany, and the Ottoman Empire shall soon flee the country. With di Castagna's Italy investing in massive building projects from the past near decade, many have not been paid off yet, not to mention military expenses from the recent war, and debts run rampant. With investor confidence seemingly crumbling, markets across the country crash. There is also the fear that with most of the army either exhausted from the recently finished war with France or still mired with occupation duties, Italy shall not be able to defend itself from threat of invasion.
 
A good return to the TL, I like it. But I am slightly confused by the treaty provision:

-French citizens of areas annexed by Italy and Germany shall be given an year and half to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or to remain in the region and become Italian/German citizens.

Becoming a citizen? Meaning they can vote for their respective governments? Definately a no-no. Even nowadays you have to live for about five or ten years (I cant remember) before you can become a citizen. I highly doubt Italy and Germany (moreso Germany, as they hold much more populous areas) would admit all these Frenchmen as citizens.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Becoming a citizen? Meaning they can vote for their respective governments? Definately a no-no. Even nowadays you have to live for about five or ten years (I cant remember) before you can become a citizen. I highly doubt Italy and Germany (moreso Germany, as they hold much more populous areas) would admit all these Frenchmen as citizens.

Here the TL reproduces the OTL provisions of the Treaty of Frankfurt.
 
the true face

Parte Undici



March 2nd, 1869: The Paris Commune is finally put down. Silvio Barletto and Otto Von Bismarck quickly organize for a peace treaty to be drafted and signed at Frankfurt within the month.

March 17th, Antonio Romano, begins preaching across the region of Campania. The Roman Catholic priest has been preaching for 2 months in Rome and Lazio to moderate success. He began his public speech campaign against the Old Catholics after he was thrown out of his Parish by them for leading a Roman Catholic Christmas mass. His message is to bring Italy back into God's kingdom with the acceptance of the true Catholic faith. Some of his supporters say he is on a heroic quest to meet the wounded Prime Minister in Calabria and break his hardened heart into accepting Roman Catholicism again. However, his speeches also meets increasing opposition by Old Catholic and liberal-nationalist dissenters that condemn him as a dupe of the enemies of Italy.

March 25th, in Frankfurt, delegates from France, Italy, and Germany meet to discuss a peace treaty. The French delegation is quickly informed that they shall not be allowed to discuss the terms of the treaty, but they are just there to sign the document. France's army and navy have been completely destroyed in the war against the Italo-German alliance and large areas of France are under military occupation by alliance forces.

The Treaty states that Italy is to gain Nice, Savoy, Corsica, and the French Riviera up to Hyeres. Eastern Algeria from the border with Tunisia up to occupied Oran, and the recognition of France that Tunisia is within the Italian sphere of influence. Germany is to gain all the territory of the current French provinces of Alsace and Lorraine up to the Meuse, as well as Luxembourg. France recognizes the existence and territorial integrity of the Italian and German Empires.

-French citizens of areas annexed by Italy and Germany shall be given an year and half to decide between keeping their French nationality and emigrating, or to remain in the region and become Italian/German citizens.

-The French shares of the Suez Canal Company shall be seized and divided between Italy and Germany in equal parts.

-France shall pay a war indemnity of six billion Francs (3 to Italy and 3 to Germany), submitting to occupation by Italo-German troops until the amount is rendered in full. A billion francs are to be paid to the King of the Netherlands as indemnity for the German annexation of Luxembourg.

-France shall cede its holdings in Indochina (Cambodia and Cochin china) to be turned into a joint Italo-German protectorate.

The French delegation was appalled at the terms of the Treaty. It was clear, however, that just as Austria years ago, with the current condition of their country, France had no choice but to accept it. A last ditch effort was made by the French delegation to at least get an amendment. The French provisional government appealed to Barletto that Indochina remain in the hands of the French. Barletto agreed immediately, later telling Italian delegates that he is only concerned with Italian interests within Europe. Bismarck is not bothered overmuch with Barletto's allowance of France to keep Indochina, since at this time he has limited interest in Germany’s colonial expansion and wishes to avoid a clash with the imperial interests of Britain. The French agree to the amended treaty and sign it on the 27th.

April 1st, Barletto returns to cheering crowds in Rome. The nation of Italy is overjoyed at their gains and revels at its new empire. The crowd is overjoyed also that their beloved fearless leader Francesco di Castagna is making a great recovery. He gives a statement to a national paper from his estate in Calabria saying "Italy, after centuries at the feet of France and Austria, has finally risen up and beaten its great oppressors. This is the Italian age. This is the power of the Italian people".

Silvio Barletto celebrates victory in a different way... Barletto pronounces that this day is to be forever remembered in Italy as the day that the Italian underdog beats the tyrannical French. He goes on saying that with France and Austria "out of the way", Italy will focus on its eastward destiny. Barletto then lays claims to Albania and the Ionian Islands, to the evident surprise of every government official in sight. He continues his rant for another 40 minutes to a rather smaller crowd than when he began his speech.

April 2nd, As news of the previous day's speech surfaces in Britain and the Ottoman Empire, confidence in Silvio Barletto begins to wither away. PM Gladstone of the United Kingdom, Constantine, King of Greece, and Abdul Hamid II, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, all express great distaste for the recent blabber of the Italian PM. To their statements, Barletto responds that "Italian destiny is inevitable. It is a fact that the world will soon have to live with". Many Italian officials, including di Castagna, cringe upon hearing this. They fear that these reckless words will forever stain any Italian attempts at expansion.

April 3rd, Barletto's newest batch of comments have sparked high tension in Europe. in Britain, Prime Minister Gladstone gives a conference. In it, he states that recent talk of Italian territorial ambitions in the Balkans, combined with the culmination of recent years’ events, appears to be an intolerable disruption of the tranquility of Europe. He then continues that British economic and diplomatic relations with Barletto's Italy are on hold.

Simultaneously in Constantinople, Abdul Hamid II declares the Ottoman Empire is in full support of the British and suspends its economic and diplomatic relations with Barletto's Italy. He finishes by wishing di Castagna well and hoping he recovers quickly.

April 4th, Bismarck, alarmed by what has transpired within the past 48 hours and not wanting to find himself in a fight with Britain for the sake of Italian breakneck expansionism, exercises pressure on Italian elites to rein in Italy until the "true" Prime Minister’s health has recovered.

In Italy, high moods related to victory switch to panic as people and investors fear that foreign investment from Britain, Germany, and the Ottoman Empire shall soon flee the country. With di Castagna's Italy investing in massive building projects from the past near decade, many have not been paid off yet, not to mention military expenses from the recent war, and debts run rampant. With investor confidence seemingly crumbling, markets across the country crash. There is also the fear that with most of the army either exhausted from the recently finished war with France or still mired with occupation duties, Italy shall not be able to defend itself from threat of invasion.

Well the italians show their true face, not for nothing they jump so quickly against the CP in OTL, and that is true, the italians are that, frustraded imperialist second-rate power, who can never competed against the top dog(Britain, Germany,France,US, Austria), and TTL that will no be the exception(even again the wishes of the italian wankers resident here,cofcfoeurofedccoffdo)

well, i hope than castañetta recover soon try to repair then damage done(the Germans will never abadon the Ottomans, they not only become their allies... was their friend since Frederich der grosse religious tolerance)
 
If this reply looks retarded, bare with me, Its been a while and ive forgotten how to do all the /QUOTE stuff

A good return to the TL, I like it.

Thank you!

But I am slightly confused by the treaty provision:



Becoming a citizen? Meaning they can vote for their respective governments? Definately a no-no. Even nowadays you have to live for about five or ten years (I cant remember) before you can become a citizen. I highly doubt Italy and Germany (moreso Germany, as they hold much more populous areas) would admit all these Frenchmen as citizens.

Here the TL reproduces the OTL provisions of the Treaty of Frankfurt.

I read the same Wiki page, and was under the impression that that was fine. Jim, what do you suggest?

Well the italians show their true face, not for nothing they jump so quickly against the CP in OTL, and that is true, the italians are that, frustraded imperialist second-rate power, who can never competed against the top dog(Britain, Germany,France,US, Austria), and TTL that will no be the exception(even again the wishes of the italian wankers resident here,cofcfoeurofedccoffdo)

I'm sorry my friend, but I have no idea whether you just insulted Italians...?

well, i hope than castañetta recover soon try to repair then damage done(the Germans will never abadon the Ottomans, they not only become their allies... was their friend since Frederich der grosse religious tolerance)

He will, Castagna is just wounded. Still, with everyone in Europe wanting Barletto out. our boy di Castagna will be back next part. Hmm, is the Ottoman part true? Will Germany ally with the Ottomans over Italy? I have an upcoming part that may question that...
 
If this reply looks retarded, bare with me, Its been a while and ive forgotten how to do all the /QUOTE stuff



Thank you!





I read the same Wiki page, and was under the impression that that was fine. Jim, what do you suggest?



I'm sorry my friend, but I have no idea whether you just insulted Italians...?



He will, Castagna is just wounded. Still, with everyone in Europe wanting Barletto out. our boy di Castagna will be back next part. Hmm, is the Ottoman part true? Will Germany ally with the Ottomans over Italy? I have an upcoming part that may question that...
As I said, instead of ethnic Germans per OTL you have ethnic French. So I would give them the year and a half to migrate to France as you originally said, but the remainings can be italianised, maybe passing an italian lanugage/culture program/exam. If any remain after that (which I doubt), they could always be resettled around the rest of the country.

And as for what Nivek said, that is a rather racist comment against Italians, but it has some truth in it. We all know the Italian WWIII jokes, dont we?:p
 
As I said, instead of ethnic Germans per OTL you have ethnic French. So I would give them the year and a half to migrate to France as you originally said, but the remainings can be italianised, maybe passing an italian lanugage/culture program/exam. If any remain after that (which I doubt), they could always be resettled around the rest of the country.

Hmmm, I really do like that idea. Could di Castagna change enstate that when he assumes.. or re-assumes (w.e) power, or do I have to go edit that?

And as for what Nivek said, that is a rather racist comment against Italians, but it has some truth in it. We all know the Italian WWIII jokes, dont we?:p

... Ah, I see. Aside from the truths hidden DEEP inside, that comment was not not appreciated in the slightest. Nivek, I appreciate your contribution as I appreciate all help to this TL, which I try to keep as collaborative as possible. However, please keep it constructive. Otherwise, please don't post again.

thank you
 

Eurofed

Banned
Yes, but OTL these people are already mostly German. ITTL we are seeing actual Frenchmen.

Given that Germany and Italy are liberal states, and 19th-century liberalism, even at its worst, did not stand for permanent disenfranchisement of minorities or mass explusions, giving the vote to French inhabitants of annexed areas can't be helped. At the most, we can expect them to be denied local government self-rule for a good time, until the central government is reasonably sure of theri loyalty. That's what IOTL the Kaiserreich did with A-L after 1871 and Italy did with South Tyrol and Venezia Giulia after 1918. And frankly, the German and Italian majorities of TTL Germany and Italy are so big that a few extra French voters are certainly not going to disrupt their cohesion.

@ Nivek. I'm sorry to burst your sorry anti-Italian racist bubble by stating that ITTL Italy has already and thoroughly kicked two of your supposed (and actually on their way down) "top dogs", France and Austria. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Barletto is an megalomanic idiot but in all likelihood, he's not going to cling to power any long enough to make any really lasting damage. He's just here to show this is not the bad sort of wank where the star nation always does right. OTOH, any nation can have its blonde moments when a idiot worms his way into power (did anyone say GWB ?) and TTL is being no exception. DiCastagna has built well and Barletto's blunders won't survive his very likely brief spell into power. Sorry, but in all likelihood TTL is going to severely disappoint your prejudices when in a few decades Italy builds on the foundations laid by DiCastagna to settle its unquestioned place among "top dogs", the equal or better of France. As for Austria, really, the damage it has suffered is too severe, in all likelihood it is not for long on the map of Europe. And as for Germany, Bismarck is onoly showing his well-known good sense by not letting Barletto's idiocy drag him into a senseless fight with Britain, but the idea that ITTL the Ottoman Empire would ever be a more important ally than the nation that just helped him crush two great powers in a row is farcical. The economic dominant role of oil is still many decades in the future, and by then, TTL Italy shall be an industrialized giant and utterly indispensable to Germany.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
About the issue of the French minorities, yes, I agree that some kind of Germanization/Italianization program could be plausible for the times, after all it's what Bismarck implemented against Poles and post-1918 Italy against Austrians and Slavs.

FC: ITTL, Germany choosing the Ottoman Empire over Italy as its main ally is utterly implausible, economically, politically, and strategically. Italy has just proven its huge usefulness to Germany on the battlefield, holds more economic potential for German investment, and is a wholly complementary strategic partner. After defeating two great powers in a row, no doubt everyone in Europe sees TTL Italy as an up-and-coming great power in the making, kinda 19th century Latin Prussia, whereas the Ottoman Empire is still the despised "sick man of Europe", which maybe ITTL may have somewhat better chances of recovery, maybe.
 
Given that Germany and Italy are liberal states, and 19th-century liberalism, even at its worst, did not stand for permanent disenfranchisement of minorities or mass explusions, giving the vote to French inhabitants of annexed areas can't be helped. At the most, we can expect them to be denied local government self-rule for a good time, until the central government is reasonably sure of theri loyalty. That's what IOTL the Kaiserreich did with A-L after 1871 and Italy did with South Tyrol and Venezia Giulia after 1918. And frankly, the German and Italian majorities of TTL Germany and Italy are so big that a few extra French voters are certainly not going to disrupt their cohesion.

yeah, I guess thats more plausible. I was thinking and having Italy kick every Frenchman out doesn't sound right. Besides, those who wish to stay shouldn't be a threat.

@ Nivek. I'm sorry to burst your sorry anti-Italian bubble by stating that ITTL Italy has already and thoroughly kicked two of your supposed (and actually on their way down) "top dogs", France and Austria. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Barletto is an megalomanic idiot but in all likelihood, he's not going to cling to power any long enough to make any really lasting damage. He's just here to show this is not the bad sort of wank where the star nation always does right. OTOH, any nation can have its blonde moments when a idiot worms his way into power (did anyone say GWB ?) and TTL is being no exception. DiCastagna has built well and Barletto's blunders won't survive his very likely brief spell into power. Sorry, but in all likelihood TTL is going to severely disappoint your prejudices when in a few decades Italy builds on the foundations laid by DiCastagna to settle its unquestioned place among "top dogs", the equal or better of France. As for Austria, really, the damage it has suffered is too severe, in all likelihood it is not for long on the map of Europe. And as for Germany, Bismarck is onoly showing his well-known good sense by not letting Barletto's idiocy drag him into a senseless fight with Britain, but the idea that ITTL the Ottoman Empire would ever be a more important ally than the nation that just helped him crush two great powers in a row is farcical. The economic dominant role of oil is still many decades in the future, and by then, TTL Italy shall be an industrialized giant and utterly indispensable to Germany.

Actually, originally I had intended for Barletto to clear the image that this isn't "the bad sort of wank where the star nation always does right", but I have since changed and I've decided to play God (not that I wasn't before, but an un-biased God). Barletto really is a major fuck up for Italy in some respects (evident down the road), but he will also give way to good things (more so than bad, which I didn't intend but happened anyways :p) in future.

Anyways, RE the last part of Eurofed's last paragraph: I couldn't have said it better myself!
 
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FC: ITTL, Germany choosing the Ottoman Empire over Italy as its main ally is utterly implausible, economically, politically, and strategically. Italy has just proven its huge usefulness to Germany on the battlefield, holds more economic potential for German investment, and is a wholly complementary strategic partner. After defeating two great powers in a row, no doubt everyone in Europe sees TTL Italy as an up-and-coming great power in the making, kinda 19th century Latin Prussia, whereas the Ottoman Empire is still the despised "sick man of Europe", which maybe ITTL may have somewhat better chances of recovery, maybe.

Absolutely! My comment there was more of a statement to Nivek saying "wait and see". The Ottomans have nothing to offer Germany and whatever they do have, Italy can offer double. Italy and Germany will be aligned for the rest of the TL as I can see it. The only time I can see their governments moving apart is as Italy gains enough economic and military power to support itself as a major world power. Even then they will still be linked by major German investment in Italy. Again, I really don't see it happening.

Yes the Ottoman empire has a way better chance of surviving ITTL. They have benefited HUGELY from di Castagnan Italy's booming economy. Still, don't underestimate the power of outside forces...
 
What's Germany's relations with Britain, especially in terms of the naval build up? Hell the Italian navy anyway. I would think they'd start to be concerned about Germano-Italian hegemony since they've been kicking everyone around for a while.
 
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