Italian Royalty

Is there anyway that your native Italian royal families (Medici, Este, Gonzaga, Farnese etc) can survive to the present (without being as apathetic/inbred/hedonistic/homosexual as OTL) with a POD no later than 1660? In other words your OTL Ferdinando, Francesco Maria and Gian Gastone de Medici, Oddoardo, Francesco and Antonio Farnese; Rinaldo III d'Este, and Carlo III Gonzaga are still around but have a little more luck with a) the same wives; or b) different wives (then who).

NOTE: male line descent only, please
 
Is there anyway that your native Italian royal families (Medici, Este, Gonzaga, Farnese etc) can survive to the present (without being as apathetic/inbred/hedonistic/homosexual as OTL) with a POD no later than 1660? In other words your OTL Ferdinando, Francesco Maria and Gian Gastone de Medici, Oddoardo, Francesco and Antonio Farnese; Rinaldo III d'Este, and Carlo III Gonzaga are still around but have a little more luck with a) the same wives; or b) different wives (then who).

NOTE: male line descent only, please

For the Farmeses, have Francesco Farnese be less greedy and not try to keep his sister-in-law Dorothea Sophie of Neuburg's dowry by marrying her. The 8 year difference made it fairly unlikely for the marriage to produce children so perhaps a different German wife or perhaps a member of one of the Papal families.

For the Medici's, get Gian Gastone de' Medici an annulment from his wife Anna Maria Franziska of Saxe-Lauenburg. They separated soon after their marriage instead of staying married, let the Pope (either Innocent XII or Clement XI) grant an annulment.

For the d'Estes, let Ercole III d'Este's infant son,Rinaldo Francesco d'Este, survive and have children.

For the Gonzagas, have Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga live longer. He had just married a new wife, Suzanne Henriette de Lorraine,who as only 18, eight months before his death, so him living longer would practically guarentte the line's survival. Also, he was proved to be fertile, for lack of a better word, threw his illegitimate son.
 
Couldn't the HREmperor declare Carlo III Gonzaga's bastard son Filippo as duke if there was no legitimate issue (Maximilian I, Karl V and Rudolf II had already done similar deals with Alessandro de Medici, Ludovico Sforza (not a bastard but a usurper) and Cesare d'Este) and then marry him to an heiress of the Guastalla/Sabbionetta lines?
 
Couldn't the HREmperor declare Carlo III Gonzaga's bastard son Filippo as duke if there was no legitimate issue (Maximilian I, Karl V and Rudolf II had already done similar deals with Alessandro de Medici, Ludovico Sforza (not a bastard but a usurper) and Cesare d'Este) and then marry him to an heiress of the Guastalla/Sabbionetta lines?

The big issue was the last Gonzaga, Ferdinando Carlo was notoriously pro-French. He sold the fortress of Casale to the French and basically agave French troops a base in Italy, and also chose to ally with them during the War of the Spanish Succession. While there were illegitimate claimants to Mantua, the Emperor chose to simply annex it. He was actually married to the heiress of Guastalla but the marriage was childless.
 
Carlo Ferdinando was married to ONE of the heiresses to Guastalla, Anna Isabella Gonzaga; her sister was Maria Vittoria Gonzaga - mother of the last 2 dukes of Guastalla and the duchess of Rovere.

Both of her sons were officially classed as mentally ill/insane/retarded since Carolina Sobieska refused to marry Antonio due to his mental instability and also because she was in love with her 2nd cousin, Prince Radziwill. And also he/his brother also burnt to death,

That means that in theory if Eleonora Luisa Gonzaga, wife of Francesco Maria de Medici, had had children by her husband, the Medici wouldve controlled Tuscany, Urbino (theoretically) and Mantua-Guastalla.

Could the treaties of Utrecht, Rastatt & Baden not have forced the emperor to disgorge Mantua, after all, the senior heir wouldve been the Duke of Lorraine, followed by the Prince of Salm, the prince de Conde, the hereditary prince of Modena, Archduchess Maria Josefa and then Archduchess Maria Amalia. Maybe he could dower Maria Amalia with Mantua when she was proposed as a wife for the prince of Piedmont?
 
Carlo Ferdinando was married to ONE of the heiresses to Guastalla, Anna Isabella Gonzaga; her sister was Maria Vittoria Gonzaga - mother of the last 2 dukes of Guastalla and the duchess of Rovere.

Both of her sons were officially classed as mentally ill/insane/retarded since Carolina Sobieska refused to marry Antonio due to his mental instability and also because she was in love with her 2nd cousin, Prince Radziwill. And also he/his brother also burnt to death,

That means that in theory if Eleonora Luisa Gonzaga, wife of Francesco Maria de Medici, had had children by her husband, the Medici wouldve controlled Tuscany, Urbino (theoretically) and Mantua-Guastalla.

Could the treaties of Utrecht, Rastatt & Baden not have forced the emperor to disgorge Mantua, after all, the senior heir wouldve been the Duke of Lorraine, followed by the Prince of Salm, the prince de Conde, the hereditary prince of Modena, Archduchess Maria Josefa and then Archduchess Maria Amalia. Maybe he could dower Maria Amalia with Mantua when she was proposed as a wife for the prince of Piedmont?

Possibly, but given that the Emperor at that time was Charles VI and he was essentially giving up Spain, I don't see him giving up anymore ground and letting Mantua go. It was occupied pretty early in the war, IIRC. I just don't really see the Emperor letting it go unless they could possibly swap it for something else.
 
Wasn't Austria in a weak position at the bargaining table since England more or less withdrew her support when Josef I died, and she didn't want Karl VI being a repeat of Karl V, so she gave the Empire a "make peace or else" ultimatum.
 
By papal families I'm a little unclear if that is the Roman-Papal aristocracy, or families of the popes - Aldobrandini, Barberini, Ludovisi, Borghese etc

And who might be a good German wife for Francesco Farnese? Or if his nephew Alessandro Ignazio were to survive? I was thinking Amalie, Franziska Christina or Ernestina Elisabeth of Sulzbach, or perhaps Maria Anna Karoline of Bavaria for 'Sandro or perhaps Dorothea Sophie's younger sister, Hedwig.
 
Alright, so Ferdinandino de Medici rather than marrying Violante Beatrix of Bavaria (since he loathed her), what if his father, Cosimo III, who could not find fault in his daughter-in-law, saying, "I have never known, nor do I think the world can produce, a disposition so perfect", marries her instead.

The Medici were bound to still have some influence in Rome through the Grand Duke's brother, Cardinal Francesco Mariaa de' Medici. And Marguerite-Louise d'Orléans' desertion might be branded enough grounds to grant an annulment.

Cosimo III marries Violante Beatrix. Both Ferdinandino and Gian'Gastone marry elsewhere (who?).

Maybe the princess of Beira (who was offered to Gian' Gastone as part of a double marriage with his sister to marry Pedro II), however Spain (to block such a match) offered the title of "Admiral of the Spanish Seas".

That said, perhaps the Medici could walk a double line between France and the Hapsburgs. Marry one to a French/half-French/French influence princess and the other to a Hapsburg/half Hapsburg/Hapsburg influence archduchess/infanta. Or one could marry a royal princess, the other to a princess from one of Italy's houses
 
Alright, so Ferdinandino de Medici rather than marrying Violante Beatrix of Bavaria (since he loathed her), what if his father, Cosimo III, who could not find fault in his daughter-in-law, saying, "I have never known, nor do I think the world can produce, a disposition so perfect", marries her instead.

The Medici were bound to still have some influence in Rome through the Grand Duke's brother, Cardinal Francesco Mariaa de' Medici. And Marguerite-Louise d'Orléans' desertion might be branded enough grounds to grant an annulment.

Cosimo III marries Violante Beatrix. Both Ferdinandino and Gian'Gastone marry elsewhere (who?).

Maybe the princess of Beira (who was offered to Gian' Gastone as part of a double marriage with his sister to marry Pedro II), however Spain (to block such a match) offered the title of "Admiral of the Spanish Seas".

That said, perhaps the Medici could walk a double line between France and the Hapsburgs. Marry one to a French/half-French/French influence princess and the other to a Hapsburg/half Hapsburg/Hapsburg influence archduchess/infanta. Or one could marry a royal princess, the other to a princess from one of Italy's houses


First, Cosimo III couldn't marry Violante. He was still married to Marguerite Louise d'Orleans. And she didn't die until 1721 so your out of luck there. Plus Louis XIV was the most powerful monarch in Europe so I doubt the Pope would risk angering him to annul the Grand Duke's marriage.

However I like the idea of Isabel Luisa. When was she offered? Because I can't see her being allowed to leave Portugal until after 1689, because until then she was the heiress presumptive to Portugal.

For Grand Prince Fernando, what about Margherita Maria Farnese? She married Duke Francesco II of Modena but that could easily be changed to the Grand Prince. Plus marrying into Parma might end in a union between it and Tuscany farther down the road.

As for a French/ Habsburg match, I don't think that there was any free Habsburg Archduchesses. For France, there was the Orleans Princesses, Marie Louise and Anne Marie. I think Marie Louise was engaged to the King of Spain at an early age but Anne Marie would be free, either for Gian Gastone or Cardinal Francesco Maria, if he still needs to be released from his vows. Anne Marie would be a better match for the Grand Prince but I think she would be to young, so IDK if the Tuscans wanted to wait.
 
The marriage between La Sempre Noiva (Beira, the ever engaged) was planned while she was still heiress apparent, since Gian Gastone needed to wring a suitable allowance from Cosimo. Cosimo refused to allow his son such an allowance.

As for Orleans princesses, in lieu of Louis XIV having no legitimate daughters, I can't see them being sent THAT far from Paris to marry a prince who would carry no defense benefits etc. Also Cosimo had a dislike of France due to his wife (the reason his daughter's proposed marriage to the Dauphin fell through). So maybe if Marguerite-Louise dies on the way back to France, allowing Cosimo to marry Violante.

Another possibility of letting the Farnese survive, is to let Ranuccio II's child(ren) (a son and a daughter) by Margherita Violante of Savoy, survive. then marry the son to a Neuberg princess and the daughter can marry into one of the peninsula's royal families.
 
The marriage between La Sempre Noiva (Beira, the ever engaged) was planned while she was still heiress apparent, since Gian Gastone needed to wring a suitable allowance from Cosimo. Cosimo refused to allow his son such an allowance.

As for Orleans princesses, in lieu of Louis XIV having no legitimate daughters, I can't see them being sent THAT far from Paris to marry a prince who would carry no defense benefits etc. Also Cosimo had a dislike of France due to his wife (the reason his daughter's proposed marriage to the Dauphin fell through). So maybe if Marguerite-Louise dies on the way back to France, allowing Cosimo to marry Violante.

Another possibility of letting the Farnese survive, is to let Ranuccio II's child(ren) (a son and a daughter) by Margherita Violante of Savoy, survive. then marry the son to a Neuberg princess and the daughter can marry into one of the peninsula's royal families.

I suppose Cosimo could grant an allowance to his son. Then Gian Gastone and Isabel Luisa's children (assuming the have any) would eventually inherit Tuscany.

You suggested a French match not me. Personally I can't see Louis XIV marrying what amounted to the only daughters of France off to a Tuscan Prince, especially considering how bad the last French Tuscan marriage went. Also your better off abandoning Violente. She and Ferdinando were married for years with no pregnancy or hint of pregnancy from her. So even with Ferdinando's enmity toward her you would think there would have been at least ONE pregnancy. And I can't find anything to suggest that their was. Not even a miscarriage. So she might have been barren.


That seems to be really reaching for no reason. Have Hereditary Prince Odoarado survive. He already had a son (who died around the same time as his father so perhaps a double butterfly there...) and a daughter, the famous Elisabeth Farnese. Or have he brother Duke Antonio live long enough to father a son. He was married to Enrichetta d'Este, who was supposedly pregnant when he died. Also I'm not sure why your set on a Bavarian Princess. You would be better off with a Roman Princely Family.
 
I suppose Cosimo could grant an allowance to his son. Then Gian Gastone and Isabel Luisa's children (assuming the have any) would eventually inherit Tuscany.

You suggested a French match not me. Personally I can't see Louis XIV marrying what amounted to the only daughters of France off to a Tuscan Prince, especially considering how bad the last French Tuscan marriage went. Also your better off abandoning Violente. She and Ferdinando were married for years with no pregnancy or hint of pregnancy from her. So even with Ferdinando's enmity toward her you would think there would have been at least ONE pregnancy. And I can't find anything to suggest that their was. Not even a miscarriage. So she might have been barren.


That seems to be really reaching for no reason. Have Hereditary Prince Odoarado survive. He already had a son (who died around the same time as his father so perhaps a double butterfly there...) and a daughter, the famous Elisabeth Farnese. Or have he brother Duke Antonio live long enough to father a son. He was married to Enrichetta d'Este, who was supposedly pregnant when he died. Also I'm not sure why your set on a Bavarian Princess. You would be better off with a Roman Princely Family.

Ferdinando was pretty notorious for his affairs with men, a lot like his brother Gian Gastone. The fact he contracted syphillis several years after his marriage also isn't very helpful, but it may simply be a case that he and Violante were not a 'good' match in the marital sense, and even without these issues on part of the Grand Prince they may of never had children. Ferdinando definitely needs a wife who capitvates him, as he reportedly declared her "too ugly and dull" and further resigned himself to his affairs. Perhaps the King of Portugal suggests a match between him and the Princess of Beira instead of Gian Gastone? Of course there is the issue of creating a personal union, but I'm sure a treaty could be hammered out designating their second son as heir of Tuscany, or in absence of that (say, they only have one) their daughter takes that honor, but of course it would be mute when the King can remarry; as long as Beira can bear one son, Tuscany's issues will be solved for a generation at least, as it seems all of Cosimo's children had issues: Ferdinando had syphillis which it is believed his sister contracted from her own husband as well, which explains no further children following her miscarriage, while Gian Gastone had his own issues.

It might also help if Cosimo is less obsessed with creating a secondary branch of the Medici family. That is primarily why Gastone married his wife and lived abroad for some time, not to mention their totally different temperaments.
 
I think the "ugly and dull" sentiment was applicable to both Violante and her sister, the Dauphine - since the French court wasn't too impressed with her either. The Dowager Princess de Conti - daughter of Louis XIV and Louise de la Valliere - said of her "she is just as ugly asleep as awake", to which Madame la Dauphine replied "were I love child, I should be as beautiful as you!".

The marriage of one of them (suggested by Constantine) to Margherita Maria Farnese might be problematic. There's no record (that I can find) of a pregnancy, or a miscarriage of any sort while she was married to Francesco. Then again, he left no bastards, so I'm not sure if the problem was on his or her side.

Also, if she (Margherita Maria) were to have a son(s) by Francesco d'Este, that would mean no need for Rinaldo III to shuck his cardinal's skirts. So, Charlotte of Brunswick could maybe go to Florence instead of Modena?
 
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