Italian Empire and the Fascist alliance in WWII

With a POD in 1936 (annexation of Ethiopia)

It's possible to have by the 50's, WW2 over, and nazis defeated, :

A Greater Fascist Italy (with Corsica, Dalmatia... bonus points for Savoy, Nice, Italian parts of Switzerland, Malta)

An extended Italian Empire (that includes, other than Lybia and IEA, Tunisia, some other colonies, maybe even in far east Asia)

A fascist bloc: Spain, Portugal, Horty's Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece (annexed, puppet or allied), Yugoslavia (annexed, partitioned-puppet, allied)
Not as powerful as Comintern or the US, but still a serious player in the Cold War

To better explain this... that's a report of one of the most interesting HoI game ever, played with Italy

1936 I annex Ethiopia and Albania, and sign an alliance with Franco's Spain to help him during the war (France cancel a non-agg. pact with me)
1937 Alliance with Portugal
1938 Alliance with Hungary
1939 When Germany start to enter in France, I attack Yugo (i've tried to bring Greece in my alliance, but cannot join: isolationist), and so, Greece and Turkey DoW me)
1940 Yugo annexed and partitioned, to decrease belligerance, in Croatia (plus eastern part of Slovenia) and Serbia (plus Montenegro and Bosnia). Albania released (plus Kossovo) and Greece made puppet. Afther that i concluded a peace deal with Turkey gaining Istanbul (now Costantinople) and the western coast of anatolia

In the rest of the world, Japan subdued China(and created an alliance of puppet from it), Germany went as always, but, since there was no PH, USA stayed out of the war. So after Germans' Barbarossa's tide began to retire, and Soviets started to advance, i decided to attack the Axis (Germany, Slovakia and Romania) by attacking Vichy (that thus joined them)

Now some cheats :p

On Hoi you cannot join an alliance if you are the leader of another. So, seeming me plausible, I used the UK(leader of the Allies) to invite my alliance members into the Allies.
And for the same reason, i used Germany to invite Japan(and chinese) into the Axis

By the end of the war (in Europe), I've got:
Italy (with Corsica Tunisia and Djibouti taken from Vichy, Dalmatia and Lubiana from Yugoslavia), leader of the Fascist alliance with Hungary (Slovakia and Transylvania ann.) Bulgaria (Macedonia and Dobrudja ann.) Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Romania and Bohemia-Mor. puppets.

Germany has been annexed (by me!) and relased with 1938 borders.

Now I'm planning to annex Siam, take some part of DEI, and along with the Allies and the Comintern defeat Japan (US neutral)

How many of this timeline will be plausible in your opinion?!?
 
Shamelessly self-promoting an ongoing thread that deals with the same thing: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=114792

:)

A lot of what you have asked is addressed in that thread.

Yep... i've looked after it, and found it interesting. It was from your idea that i decided to do my own. But, even if they are similar (in the lot of things I saw), I decided to be more specific.
Something that make Hungary decide to choose to be helped by Italy instead of Germany (thus making harder for Hilter to be sure about Ploesti oil)
Some ways to be sure that Hitler, after defeating France, dont choose to attack Italy (who hasn't signed any Pact of Steel, adapted any antisemitic policies and so on)
My Italy, is not only neutral, but has a more active role. I think something like a Mussolini in Yalta...
Great Britain (and Churchill) forced to anknowlege the fascist bloc and his gains pretty much like what was made for the SU...
 
With a POD in 1936 (annexation of Ethiopia)

It's possible to have by the 50's, WW2 over, and nazis defeated, :
Yes

A Greater Fascist Italy (with Corsica, Dalmatia... bonus points for Savoy, Nice, Italian parts of Switzerland, Malta)
I can see Dalmatia, I think the others are ASB

An extended Italian Empire (that includes, other than Libya and IEA, Tunisia, some other colonies, maybe even in far east Asia)
Tunisia is a a not probable stretch, but maybe possible. I can't see Italy going to Asia during/post WW2.
I can see Italy with British Somalia, & I can See Italy with De Facto control over the Southern [Christian] Half of Sudan.

A fascist bloc: Spain, Portugal, Horty's Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece (annexed, puppet or allied), Yugoslavia (annexed, partitioned-puppet, allied)
Not as powerful as Comintern or the US, but still a serious player in the Cold War.

The Only way this would happen is for Italy to be neutral for the first several years of the War and then join the Allies after PH.
 
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With a POD in 1936 (annexation of Ethiopia)

I can see Dalmatia, I think the others are ASB

Why... Excluding Nice, that maybe, of the French territories is the most important, Italy can take those territories from the evil nazi shoeshiner of Vichy, and not from the true French government that helped liberate their homeland :rolleyes:

Tunisia is a a not probable stretch, but maybe possible.

I imagine that the reason for this is the same i've thought for the french mainland territories claimed by Italy..

I can't see Italy going to Asia during/post WW2.

I was thinking an Italy that, during the war, surpassed at least France in terms of power


The Only way this would happen is for Italy to be neutral for the first several years of the War and then join the Allies after PH.

I'm sorry, but why after PH? :confused:
 
Maybe one of the biggest problem for all this, is the POD in 1936...:rolleyes:

For what will be plausible, anticipating it...
 
Why... Excluding Nice, that maybe, of the French territories is the most important, Italy can take those territories from the evil nazi shoeshiner of Vichy, and not from the true French government that helped liberate their homeland
Yes, Italy could take then from Vichy, But the free French would want then Back after the war, and the US and Britain would support Free France.
I'm sorry, but why after PH?
Minister of State Ciano had a very good relationship with the US pre War. After PH, I can see him visiting Washington and cutting a deal where Italy Invades Tunusia at the same time the US invades Algeria

1935
Italy Invades Ethiopia. Italy has the tacit acceptance of France and Britian, at least till the opposition Papers in France learn of the Deal.

1936
As Italian Troops approach Abba Abbis, Halie Selassie's Staff prepare to Fly him to Safty thru Sudan to Egypt.
POD
As Selassie's plane is heading north toward Sudan, Two Itailian plane in the Right place at the wrong time [or is that the wrong place at the right time] spot the escaping plane.
When the Plane refuses to Respond the Italians shoot it down.

1st major Butterfly
There is no empathized Speech by Halie Selassie Before the League of Nations, No Censorship of Italy. Italy does not walk out of the League feeling humiliated.

1937
After the Dismal Showing by his troops in Ethiopia Mussolini orders a rebuilding, His Generals report that it will be early 1942 before it is finished.
Including in the Rebuilding are several orders to the Sdoka tank Factory in Czechoslovakia.

In order to get rid of a lot of the older equipment Italy sends it to Spain, However Italy does not send troops, or newer equipment.

1938
Anchullus . German troops march into Austria, Unable to stop It Italy joins France and Britian in the Diplomatic condemnation. This joining helps repair a little of Italy's international standing, and puts Italy firmly in the Allied camp. [for now]
Aware that only 4 years earlier He had been able to pressure the Germans against the Anchuluss , Mussolini feels personally Humiliated and vows to get back at Hitler.

Italy begins a series of new Fortifications along the Austrian Border.

March 1939
Occupation of Czechoslovakia
During the Occupation Germany canceled all sales from the Sdoka tank Factory including some ready to be delivered Italian Tanks.

May 1939
Voyage of the SS St Louis.
939 Jews fleeing the 3rd Reich set sail for Cuba, when they arrive they learn their entrance Visas have been suspended.
within a week The US Britain and France all deny them entrance.
When Hitler Boasts of this in one of His Speeches Mussolini see his Chance and invites the Ship to Dock in Tripoli.
Within a month the Italian Consulates in Germany are flooded with immigration requests.

Septembre 3rd 1939
Great Britain and France DoW Germany. Italy declares Neutrality. As Mussolini explains in one of his ongoing letters to Churchill. Italy is just not prepared to go to War.

Octobre 1939
Minister of State Ciano flys to Washington to request help and Donations to take care of the Jewish refugees fleeing Germany and Poland.

May 1940
Germany invades France

June 1940
France surrenders, establishment of Vichy France.

July 1940
Ciano flys to Washington to Argue for the diversion of the French Lead Lease supplies to Italian NAfrica. while the Military aid is diverted to England, most of the other supplies get sent to help the close to 300.000 refugees in Libya.

May 1st 1941
Barbarossa

Octobre 1941
Fall of Leningrad

7 Decembre 1941
Pearl harbor

9 Decembre 1941
Ciano flys to Washington to discuss joining the Allies. and for supplies for the million refugees in NAfrica.
 
Hem... the US in my TL aren't involved in the war.

Something like what is told in this (very interesting) thread:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=524&highlight=italia+eterna&page=4

Apart that... there's always a problem... An Italy that, after the fall of France, doesn't ally with Germany, how can mantain her neutrality, being , if sided with the allies, the only (very serious) foothold on the continent, that Hitler left?

Mussolini pretty much feared this, and,after all... Hitler attacked Greece and Yugoslavia pretty much for the same reasons,

Not to mention Lowlands, Norway, Denmark, Romania....
 
Apart that... there's always a problem... An Italy that, after the fall of France, doesn't ally with Germany, how can mantain her neutrality, being , if sided with the allies, the only (very serious) foothold on the continent, that Hitler left?

Two reasons, I would say.
First is that Italy, as neutral nation, could become a good way for nazi Germany to get all those resources that couldn't be found in occupied lands (rubber, oil etc...).

Second is that an invasion of Italy would have some rather peculiar difficulties than OTL Yugoslavia and Greece. The germans should be able to smash through the alpine defences and the troops stationed there (in ATL is said that their alert status is high), which wouldn't be easy at all since in the mountains tanks and planes have little effect, thus eliminating two of the main german advantages on the italian army. If the german pass through the Alps, they would have to fight their way trough the peninsula, which would be pratically a suicide.

IOTL the german and RSI troops managed to keep off the allies on the italian front for longer than on any other front. In this ATL the british and italian army could do the very same with the germans.
The italian and british fleet could deploy troops behind the germans line and support their armies, while the nazis, without a fleet of their own, could never stop them short of using an incredible amount of planes. The best the germans could realistically do would be setting a front along the Gothic line and transform the war into a position stalemate.

Remember, similar invasion worked OTL for specific reasons: Yugoslavia was virtually impossible to help for the British, and in Greece UK could never deply enough troops since the desert war with the italians. Norway falled to a surprise attack and again the british never had enough troops to mount an effective counterattack (but I'm strongly convinced, that Churchill, with a neutral Italy, would have invaded Norway for sure)

Besides all these reasons, you should consider that Hitler would have gave precedence to operation Barbarossa. An hypotetic italian campaign would have been long and the Fuhrer was absutely against any possibility of a war on two fronts.
I think that in this ATL, Hitler would choose a diplomatic offensive, trying to bribe Italy out of allies'camp. In the end this would just be a ruse: Hitler's gamble would be, like OTL, to keep off his enemies in the west until the defeat of Russia. After the fall of USSR, Hitler was confident that the western nation would have folded... The russians didn't comply to his desires, though :D.
 
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