Italian Dodecanese Post-World War 2???

Fascists were bastards idiots that suppressed the freedom of Italian people and led the country to the ruin.
They become so only after they lost the war.
While they were in charge they were "fulgid examples of honesty and ardiment".
Do not underestimate the italiant tendency to align with the winning side

The new democratics principles would protected the Dodecanese peoples.
you meant that as a joke, I presume.
because I laughed up until tears came out of my eyes

If Haway is part of United States why Dodecanese not can be,not part,but federated to Italy ("Regione a statuto speciale",with his Parliament) ?
The most fundamental reason is, Hawaii is in fact a colony (or it was until the '70). You cannot have colonies in europe, there are too many psycological taboos

And who had had make those "pressure"?
Catholic priests?
Well would suffice call the Carabinieri.
In Republic of Italy this is a crime.
I'm afraid attitude towards crime is much more flexible that you immagine
and if the catholic church is committing one, official are only too glad to look the other way

P.S. italianization? why?
The Republic recognizes and protect the differences (is in the constitution);differences are wealth.
Do not forget that the constitution would be entirely different from the mess patch-up arranged ater the war

On the whole, however, I do not think that a seirous attempt toward italianzation would be made, not out of respect of some astract principles, but only on a least-resistance line of operation: to attempt that you have to build schools, and organize circles, and spend on propaganda and so on. Who care if in some backwater isles on the other side of the med they wear fluffy ponpons on their shoes?
After all, Albania was under Italian more-or-less protectorate for 25 years (thought it was annexed only in '39) and no serious attempt of italianization was ever made
 
They become so only after they lost the war.
While they were in charge they were "fulgid examples of honesty and ardiment".
Do not underestimate the italiant tendency to align with the winning side
Maybe is so (is long to said,for exemple my grandparents were not members of the party,like many others,moreover),but here we talk about post WW-II,then of the Democratic Italy.


you meant that as a joke, I presume.
because I laughed up until tears came out of my eyes
Why?
i dont' joke about this principles; many in my country died for them.


The most fundamental reason is, Hawaii is in fact a colony (or it was until the '70). You cannot have colonies in europe, there are too many psycological taboos
Hawaii are a State of United States until 1959.


I'm afraid attitude towards crime is much more flexible that you immagine
and if the catholic church is committing one, official are only too glad to look the other way
Listen,laws are laws and in Italy none can said to none what religion must be.
Also,the majority of Italians are theoretically Catholics,but the truth is that, less very few,in Italy anyone is interested to religion.
The moments when an Italian go to Church are basically three: baptism,marriage,funeral.
So you can believe to me:at anyone import if a guy is orthodox,mormon or believe at Yoda the Jedi.

Do not forget that the constitution would be entirely different from the mess patch-up arranged ater the war
This is offensive. is obvious that you don't know about history of the Italian Constitution.

On the whole, however, I do not think that a seirous attempt toward italianzation would be made, not out of respect of some astract principles, but only on a least-resistance line of operation: to attempt that you have to build schools, and organize circles, and spend on propaganda and so on. Who care if in some backwater isles on the other side of the med they wear fluffy ponpons on their shoes?
After all, Albania was under Italian more-or-less protectorate for 25 years (thought it was annexed only in '39) and no serious attempt of italianization was ever made
So if even in fascist time serious attempt of "italianization" were not made imagine if can be any in democratic times!
 
I really don't understand how would it possible for Italy to retain dodecanese after OTL WW2. Did you missed the little fact that Italy lost the war?

Even in the evenience of a communist Greece, a strictly neutral Turkey and a Moscow aligned Yugoslavia, Italy would have never kept those islands right because of their new strategic importance.
Britain would have had a mandate over them and later shipped toward a careful pro-west statehood (probably with Crete).
Italy was rehabilitaded much earlier than the other Axis powers, true; it was also rearmed before, but Italy was also under surveillance by the Allies. Italy got one of largest communist parties in the west, after all.

There's no way that in this situation, the allies would have let an ex-enemy to handle the most important location in the eastern mediterrean, not when other solutions are possible. Not to mention that the local greek population wasn't really thrilled by the past italian administration and the locals opinion did count for something (at least in theory...).

An italian dodecanese means an Italy that kept neutrality during WW2 or sided with the allies. And to keep those islands the italian goverments would have to switch the fascist policy of integration to one of respect for greek culture and large economical and political autonomy.
 
An italian dodecanese means an Italy that kept neutrality during WW2 or sided with the allies. And to keep those islands the italian goverments would have to switch the fascist policy of integration to one of respect for greek culture and large economical and political autonomy.

Which would probably be too much for Mussolini to swallow.
 
Well,this is not exact.
After the war the new democratic Italy gave official double language (bilinguismo) for Alto Adige/South Tyrol: Italian and German.
So why not the same for dodecanese?
This is not a problem.



But in Repubblica Italiana we have full freedom of religion!
None religion is discrimined;this is uncostitutional.
And in Sicily,Calabria and Puglia we have many Orthodoxs (1.187.130 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristianesimo_ortodosso_in_Italia )Many regions of Italy were part of Byzantine Empire,many greeks came to Italy when Bysantium fall and never converted.
Syracuse was for brief years the capital of Empire.
So also this is not a problem.

Slovenes in Italy are Catholics, but we don't exactly have a good history of relationship with them :D, and this from well before the foibe issue !
 
This is offensive. is obvious that you don't know about history of the Italian Constitution.
QUOTE]

I am afraid it is not.
if a constitution must be agreed upon by an array a different political forces ranging from Togliatti to De Gasperi, in a (lost) post-war framework, right at the frontier between the eastern and wester blocks,
what comes out is necessarily a patchwork compromise and basically a mess.
almost a third its articles refer to laws defining them in detail to be approved which are still pending.
a lot of it is also open to different interpretations (e.g. the part about private education schools), and a clear explicaton is not provided yet
 
Slovenes in Italy are Catholics, but we don't exactly have a good history of relationship with them :D, and this from well before the foibe issue !
Yes?
Well, tell this at the thousand of Slovens that are fled to Italy from communist Jugoslavia.
For the rest the foibe,grave of many Italians, were a Tito's communist job; ethnicity non involved at all.
Same carnage in the same years were committed fron Italian communist in reds areas like Emilia Romagna.
 
In any case my point is that, lacking a lost war, there WOULD NOT BE a contitution (whatever our views on it), but just the Albertine statute which was very "nineteen-century minded" and I do not remember it having any concern about minorities (however I cvould be wrong here: has someone more precise informations?)
Even not considering the not-exactly-friendly view of the fascist regime about minorities, a state founded on 1800 principles wuld carry on in the early 1900 a lot of the prejudices (on racial basis) which where common in 1800 europe.

On the other hand, the idea of a souvlaki-pizza is quite intriguing :D
 
Ironically, Italian fascist were first who came up with idea of throwing people in Foiba at Pisin...
Two bad both Italia an Yugoslavia were not in the same communistic bloc, then it would be peace and you guys could not argue with each other...
:D
 
If the German invasion of Crete fails and the British remain there in power, it may prove very difficult for the Germans and Italians to supply the Dodecanese.
With Crete secured and bombing raids against Ploesti available, the Germans may suffer more serious losses earlier than in ATL.
If Italy thus decides to quit earlier than in OTL, then perhaps the Allies will allow Italy to keep the (by then) isolated Dodecanese.
 
If the German invasion of Crete fails and the British remain there in power, it may prove very difficult for the Germans and Italians to supply the Dodecanese.
With Crete secured and bombing raids against Ploesti available, the Germans may suffer more serious losses earlier than in ATL.
If Italy thus decides to quit earlier than in OTL, then perhaps the Allies will allow Italy to keep the (by then) isolated Dodecanese.

do you think it would last during the decolonization period?
 
The is a very remote possibility that the islands could be retained by Italy. Remember that even as World War II was coming to an end the Greek Civil War was breaking out. The returning Greek Government lacked the forces to occupy the Islands. The alternative would have required the British to maintain forces in the islands until Greece could stabilize itself enough to replace the British. There is also the possiblity that Turkey might also object to Greece getting the islands as they were origionally Turkish territory seized
by Italy.

Of Cource there was always the Cyprus alternative make it a British trust on the road to independence.
 
The is a very remote possibility that the islands could be retained by Italy. Remember that even as World War II was coming to an end the Greek Civil War was breaking out. The returning Greek Government lacked the forces to occupy the Islands. The alternative would have required the British to maintain forces in the islands until Greece could stabilize itself enough to replace the British. There is also the possiblity that Turkey might also object to Greece getting the islands as they were origionally Turkish territory seized
by Italy.

Of Cource there was always the Cyprus alternative make it a British trust on the road to independence.

however, with a greece on the verge of becoming red by revolution, why to give it some isles strategically close to the straits?
 
Ironically,without the war of 1912 between Italy and Ottoman Empire,Dodecanese would remain to Turkey.
So ask for "enosis" to Turkish :D
P.S.
Ok,ok nothing federation with Italy,but at least said thanks?
No,eh? :rolleyes:
Ah,ok,better the Turkish.
 
Top